Criticise Ken by all means, but for God’s sake keep it credible
It’s been a dispiriting summer. And not just because of our failure to sign the players we clearly need following the departure of both goalkeepers and the central midfield pair of Bradley Johnson and Neil Kilkenny. No less unedifying has been the ceaseless negativity of a large number of Leeds fans, particularly the reflexive desire to perceive every piece of news emanating from Elland Road as proof of Ken Bates’s malevolence. No sign of an £8 million striker? Bates out. Waving goodbye to an average keeper who refused to sign a new contract? Bates out. Crap kit? Bates out. Microsoft not named as our new shirt sponsor? Bates out.
The Bates-is-evil filter has made it all-but impossible to sensibly discuss the club’s prospects for 2011/12: Whatever Bates does, the current sentiment runs, it’ll be bad for Leeds United. It’s reminiscent of American right-wing radio’s obsession with Barack Obama, in which every lunch with a Chinese trade delegation or speech to autoworkers in Michigan is evidence the president wants to turn America into a neo-Marxist Saudi Arabia. With universal healthcare. After a while, it just becomes meaningless noise, devoid of any great insight or intellectual honesty. In fact, it’s plain tedious.
Now, let’s be clear, there are many reasons to dislike and distrust Ken Bates. His procurement of the club was suspicious to the point of possible illegality, the ownership of the stadium is unnecessarily opaque, the whereabouts of Fabian Delph’s £6 million transfer fee after the breakeven year of 2008 is still unclear, and the confrontations with both Leeds City Council and the West Yorkshire Police are both needless and embarrassing. The Bates Out campaign does have genuine legitimacy.
But the visceral hatred of the Monaco millionaire is beginning to distort what have been three productive seasons at Leeds United. We’ve turned debt into profit, waved goodbye to League 1, and developed a squad of players that boasts several internationals and which narrowly missed out on a second successive promotion last year. The Bates Out crowd, though, would have us believe this is merely the logical outcome for any cub with our resources. But that’s how the anti-Bates filter works, it sees his influence everywhere – except when good things happen.
I’m hardly a Bates fan. But a popular chairman is invariably a poor one – as Peter Ridsdale proved so uniquely. And even if Bates doesn’t always deserve the benefit of the doubt, constantly misrepresenting key aspects of his chairmanship is not supporter advocacy – it’s self-delusion.
Here are five arguments that have been made against Bates that, for the sake of accuracy, really need challenging.
1. Under Ken, we’re now a selling club
Let’s be honest, apart from the Revie era, a brief flash of domestic dominance that ended 37 years ago, Leeds have always been a selling club – no matter how we’ve been faring. Jordan and McQueen departed a year after the 1977 FA Cup Semi-Final, Cantona and Batty were sold within 18 months of the 1992 title triumph and Rio Ferdinand a year after reaching the last four of the Champions League. But then, Manchester United (Beckham, Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo) are also a selling club, as are Liverpool (Torres, Mascherano) and Arsenal (how many names can two brackets contain?). No club is ever immune to predatory offers from rivals flushed with cash.
In the last three years, the only player that we cashed in on was Fabian Delph, and only the most romantic of Leeds fans would expect a third division club to turn down £6 million for a teenager whose experience amounted to a solitary season. Indeed, in 2010 the club chose to keep Jermaine Beckford, easily our most bankable asset, for the League One promotion run-in and allow him to leave for nothing in the summer. Hardly profit-driven motivation, was it?
2. Ken will only recruit free transfers
This has been repeated so often in my Twitter feed that it’s almost a hashtag in it’s own right. Sure, we have signed a lot of free transfers in the last couple of years, but last season alone we spent something close to £1.5 million on transfers, and a further half million the year before that. We can argue all we want about the merits of Collins, Bruce, Bromby, Clayton, O’Brien, McCormack and Gradel, and whether a bigger fighting fund would have recruited better players, but they were Grayson’s picks and, yes, they all cost money.
Of course, the opposite argument is invariably used when our own out-of-contract players – Johnson, Kilkenny, Beckford – leave on free transfers. Then, they’re always seen as players Bates is insufficiently ambitious to keep, not cast-offs no one else wants.
3. Every signing by our Championship rivals is a player we should have bought
It’s becoming the Leeds United transfer echo: every transaction involving a Championship club this summer has been followed by a Leeds fan demanding “why weren’t we in for him?” Some have merit, like Scott Danns or Kevin Nolan, but most others wouldn’t have been on Grayson’s radar had he been given a budget of £20 million. Craig Mackail-Smith? David Nugent? Nicky Maynard? No matter that Leeds had one of the most potent attacking forces in the Championship last year, it seems that we should still sign strikers of modest or unproven talent – on long contracts, at astronomical wages – because that’s what “ambitious” clubs do.
4. Ken Bates’ failure to invest is running the club into the ground
This is an argument that confounds me. You can claim we’re not on the right path, that Bates’ conservative strategy won’t achieve promotion as quickly as we’d like, if at all, but after the adventures of the Ridsdale era, balancing the books and turning a profit would seem like the exact opposite of running the club into the ground. In fact, with demands for multi-million pound recruits and the repurchase of Elland Road and Thorp Arch coming from every corner, it seems a good number of fans are proposing the same recklessness that catapulted us into oblivion a decade ago. Pardon me if I welcome a more cautious approach.
(As an interesting side note, the £400 million naming rights deal for Manchester City’s stadium wasn’t affected by the small detail that City don’t actually own it.)
5. Bates is a good businessman – but only when he’s ripping off the fans
It’s incredible how Bates’ business acumen is used against him when player budgets are assigned or season-ticket prices set, yet suddenly he is a financial incompetent when it comes to the cost of redeveloping the East Stand (which is designed to generate revenue) or, ludicrously, selling the shirt sponsor. One Tweeter even suggested that Enterprise Insurance was “Bates yet again doing something on the cheap”. Sorry, you can’t have it both ways; either he’s a mercenary, screwing down costs and inflating prices, or he isn’t. You can argue that good business practice won’t get us anywhere in an era of Gulf oil cash, but then make that argument, not vacillate wildly on Bates’ business skills to suit your agenda.
To be clear, this is not a defence of Ken Bates. We still haven’t been as active in the transfer market as we need to be, and it would reflect poorly on both his and Grayson’s record if we finished lower than last season’s seventh place. And, yes, the ownership of both club and stadium stinks to high heaven.
I’m merely arguing that not everything is rotten at Leeds United and not everything Bates does is necessarily negative for the club – as the last three years have demonstrated. I’m also asking for a bit more honesty in the debate. Bates should be judged on the effects of his actions, not on his supposed motivations. Criticise him by all means, but arguments always carry more weight when they’re plausible.
Good points – rights lets get on with it
MOT
i agree with some of these comments on things not being as bad as fans are making them out to be.
the problem with the bates regime is that we are always looking to sign old heads who are ready for the knackers yard because they are touted to us by agents. why dont we actually scout young talent from other clubs??
like most fans, im just frustrated because we are only 3 or 4 players short of a really good team and as usual grayson’s reduced to rummaging through the bargain bin for players he really does’nt want but will make do with for the sake of having a bigger squad of players. (that he wont end up using).
[...] actually think this is a pretty balanced Article Time For Some Bates Balance | The Square Ball I think that was a good read and well argued. Reply With Quote + Reply [...]
Superb, agree 100% with the whole article
Unfortunately supporters like yourself and the author of this article simply make any prospect of removing the Bates regime from our club all the more difficult.
Overall we have made very little progress in 7 years of Bates rule, and the revenue generated by the club has not been reinvested to improve the quality of the team or prospects of a return to the PL. We are supporters spending hard cash, not shareholders looking for a return on our investments. ….. The only person reaping the rewards of Bates’ ownership ( which has probably been for the full 7 years ) is Bates himself ….. Wake up to the reality of this !!!
At last, someone talking some sense about Bates. Excellent article. Why is Bates wasting our money building hotels and nightclubs and convention centres and other stupid buildings that will generate revenue for the club 365 days a year instead of just 25 days a year? Bates’ biggest problem, however, is his mouth. He would certainly never qualify as a UK diplomat in Monaco, would he? Nevertheless, I’d still rather have the crafty bugger fighting on my side than against me.
Your words would be valid, were it not for the fact that Leeds would be a 3rd division side without Howson, Gradel and Snodgrass. Leeds haven’t signed these guys up on new contracts which suggests that we are waiting until the end of the season to negotiate. At that point, Howson and Gradel will be free and Snodgrass on a low wage.
If we don’t get promoted, Gradel and Howson will leave for free. Lose them and Snodgrass won’t stay either and will probably go for £2m I guess.
In that scenario, Leeds have lost £10m+ worth of players on frees and we’ll have £2m from the Snodgrass sale to replace Gradel/Howson/Snodgrass.
Let’s face it, we have to get promoted this season or we’ll getb relegated the season after.
I think some of the overreactions this summer is that a lot of the fans are expressing compound frustration about the state of the club onder Bates stewardship and now ownership. Our wage/contract/transfer policy is farcial at best and cynical at worst. Let’s not forget Bates recent acquisition of LUFC how can anyone with any perspective call it for what it is Taking The Piss, its a blatant fuck you to the fans primarily. While I agree in my lifetime LUFC has had two good chairman Harry Renolds and Leslie Silver, I doubt if Reynolds was ever reviled but Silver was not always popular, Chairmain shouldn’t be running a popularity contest but neither should they be anti the supporters and run a policy of dividing and the over seeing the fans. At the end of Jan Bates will have been at the club 7yrs and has the club really moved on, the last time we were out of the top tier it took 8yrs I some how fear its going to take longer this time around!
I share everyone’s frustration that there has not been more transfer activity. I remember the summer before the first full season under Wilko when there were suddenly 6 or 7 signings and everyone’s imagination was fired. The same now would be great – but we are in a different era where acquiring a full back like Sterland from a top flight side and getting him to drop a division is just not on.
I find the anti Bates articles tiresome. He did save the club. He has presided over a bank book balancing exercise superbly. We do have a better squad today then at any time since we dropped out of the top flight.
I penned a likely team sheet for an opening fixture. There are some gaps but Snodgrass, Gradell, Howson, Becchio would make any Championship side. Paddy and O’Brien could be a very sound centreback pairing. I am looking forward to seeing Nunez start. Somma should feature plenty and I have hopes for Sam. We have the makings of a good side which 3 or 4 signings would make very strong.
My personal view is the Kilkenny seemed unable to make a forward pass and was for ever ranting at officials. I actually liked Johnson – hard worker, good in the air, albeit with limitations and at the end of the day if you had to keep Gradel and Snodgrass or these two, there is no question what the answer would be.
Things are never as good or as bad as they seem. My expectation would be for a similar year in terms of leaague position as last year – but hopefully with a bit more nouse we can close out some of the games we should have seen through and collect the points that would have seen us to play-offs.
No1 debt to profit, going into administration enabled this.Think back to the start of the season we were relegated from the championship,ken bates said by the end of the season, we would be virtually (debt free.) 35 mill in debt, how wrong can you be.So he had administration in mind at the start of the championship season?.No2 league 1 were we langiushed for 3 seasons not a quick return.You mention ken bates spent around £2 mill on players in his tenancy how do you know, the fans never get to know anything.When he became lord and master he said the supporters clubs had to much power,of course the fans have power, were the life blood of the club.No fans no leeds utd, no ken bates, still leeds utd will live on.No3 just missed promotion, we finished 7th no were near.Losing to doncaster in play-off final is just missed.No4 missing money.You did touch on the missing £6 mill for delph, what about the millions we made from selling off our best youth players.Has ken bates ever told the fans what’s going on at the club.Yes when it suits him.I love leeds utd, i just don’t love the way it’s run.
With respect, this is the biggest load of bollocks I’ve read in years!!!!
How anybody can defend this thieving piece of shit is beyond me. Bates is a money-mad crook who is bleeding the club & it’s supporters dry. If people are happy with this then that’s up to them, but I’m certainly not!!! I hate the cunt for what he is doing to my club.
agree mate he is milking this club
Let’s face it, we don’t trust him, he’s sneaky, argumentative, Money grabbing, devious back stabber. To show how little fans trust him, just ask this hypothetical question, would you be surprised if he turned out to own the company building the executive boxes? The answer would probably tell how much we trust hin
AS above, what a load of toss.
Bates is a Bloody crook, and for anyone to even think
about defending this syster, is fucking deluded.
The twat as bled us dry, will continue to bleed us dry,
So if you’re happy with this cunt in charge, giving us freebies, loans, and not offering are better players new contracts.
Oh fuck it….You’ve got the reaction you wanted.
It made my teeth itch tbh. I can’t honestly think of one thing that man has done for me as a ST holder of 20 odd years now. Yes things needed stablising at the lowest point in our history granted. But the way the man has come in & said its my way or no way, to the point of threatening to liquidize the club will always be unforgivable in my eyes.
To be honest I could go on all day like most. I’ll agree to disagree on this one.
“We’ve turned debt into profit, waved goodbye to League 1″. We have to sell players to turn a small profit, and who took us into League One in the first place? I am all for balance, but these are just a couple of examples of where your attempt at equanimity have descended into typical Elland Road spin.
There is very little to defend in Bates’ tenure as Chairman at Leeds, I suspect the motives or intelligence of those who attempt to do so.
Personally, and I don’t represent TSQ, but if you can’t communicate in a sensible and intelligent way don’t bother. Its a well written article, and actually for once talking a whole lot of sense. Have some perspective for once please, LUFC are a second season Championship club at present. So please chill the fck out. Roll on August 6
I have to say, this is the best article I have read in a while. Bates has sorted the finances of the club, and we have been promoted while being thrifty. We are not a Premier League club, we are a Championship club, and any other Championship club that achieved what we have in the last three years without spending would have had their manager poached, as well as their more talented players. Both the manager and chairman have done exactly what is expected of them in terms of end result, and it doesn’t matter what you do inbetween as long as the end result is right.
You may not be defending Bates, but I am…and I’ll defend Grayson while I’m at it: he’s one of us!
There’s just one part of this article I disagree with…”it would reflect poorly on both his and Grayson’s record if we finished lower than last season’s seventh place”. I believe we over-achieved with last season’s squad and people should recognize that.
Side note: Michael Brown is every bit as good as Bradley Johnson, and Kasper Schmeichel is an extremely replaceable keeper. Someone like David Stockdale would be a huge step up in the keeper department.
EXCELLENT ARTICLE THOUGH. NO GOOD JUST BASHING EVERYONE, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE POSITIVES AS WELL AS THE NEGATIVES.
Poor article if taken at face value but can it be taken at face value?
Seems to me to be one of those journalist’s “Let’s throw a hand grenade in, that’ll get em going” type of article.
Certainly there’s still enough fans believe that Bates saved our club & there was no other option to keep the arguement going
Excellent article. Sadly some people will always be anti-Bates, purely because of the Chelsea connection. A sense of balance is needed and this article provides that.
I’m grateful for what Bates has done for Leeds so far – the alternative doesn’t bear thinking about. I know I’ll probably hear the same old stuff about “someone would have bought us” and “the club would never die”, but it seems to me we came very close to that. Don’t forget all the real shysters who were d*cking the club around when it came to potential takeovers before Bates came along (including son of Revie!).
Spot on Eddie – at last, someone brave enough to put his head above the parapet.
You’ll get it shot off and already, most of the feedback is confirming your points!
Anyone who can’t see how we’re progressing, both on and off the pitch, can’t be looking!
Agree wholeheartedly with this.When you look at the halfwits we had in charge before Bates ie Ridsdale, McKenzie (remember his excruciating lap of honour?) Krasner etc Bates is a paragon of business acumen. His instincts are sharp, he fights our corner and he is totally nerveless.
Like most people though his strengths are his weakness. His resilience makes him overly stubborn and because he doesn’t feel the need to be popular , he keeps upsetting everybody when a modicum of emotional intelligence and genuine communication would get people on his side.
I had a bit to do with Ridsdale about 10 years ago and you could see that his obsession with popularity was his prime motivation and that drove him to inreasingly riskier and riskier actions. There was no basic business model that he stuck to and if it hadn’t been Seth and Robbie it would have been someone else that took us over the brink.
Bates however is the opposite -his business model is paramount and he won’t break it for anybody or anything. He has a view on the value of a player and once the opposition bid past that value they can have him, and he’ll move on to the next option. The problem is that he is slow to see a change in the market and won’t act when his options are running out ( if he even identifies that they are).
Bates is a visionary and he has identified a football implosion in the lower leagues he doesn’t want to be part of and he is operating in a way that will eventually serve us well.The problem is that no one knows how long that will take and in the meantime fans can’t understand why a team with our buying power can’t appear to compete with other teams. The reason is that we are now living within our means and (some/most) others aren’t in search of the holy grail which is the premier league.
What I find hard to comprehend is how a man his age can be so disciplined when most of us couldn’t resist the urge to splash the cash to have one last hurrah.
In my view Bates would be appreciated more if, without necessarily changing anything he’s doing , he clearly communicated his ambitions, plans, investment strategy, budget constraints etc instead of his incoherent wednesday ramblings but that’s not Ken and we are just going to have to put up with it.
Just a couple of points here Eddie:
1. Bates hasn’t made the business profitable. The LUFC business has lost money in each of the last three seasons. The operating loss each year has only been turned into a profit through player sales. We pay the highest ticket prices in the division yet we have to sell players to make money; while unexplained payments to the likes of Mark Taylor continue to flow out of the club.
2. It’s true that we don’t need to own Elland Road or Thorp Arch to redevelop them or profit from them. But Ken Bates has consistently justified our sky-high ticket prices by blaming the rent we have to pay for Elland Road and Thorp Arch – blaming the prices, by extension, on the Krasner regime. It would be nice to see if, by buying them back, ticket prices would be reduced to reflect the reduction in outgoings. Secondly, it was Ken Bates himself who said upon taking over in 2006 that LUFC’s first priority was to buy back the stadium and the training ground, so you can’t blame the fans for wondering why we still don’t own them six years later.
When I began to read this article I thought you were going along the right tracks – using facts and stats to highlight that a lot of the things claimed by Bates were in fact false, however the article quickly descended into the simplistic arguments you lambast the other side of the argument for presenting over and over. Great how you even managed to get at least a couple of references to Ridsdale in there as well just incase anyone was thinking we should spend some money on what should be our core business product – the team.
Some of the arguments floating around about Leeds being a well-run ship who are somehow ‘ahead of the game’ in terms of turning a profit and being a good business is just as tedious to people like me who see the potential of Leeds United as a club and it’s importance to the city. In my opinion some it is a club and business that is under-performing massively.
Thanks for all the comments… although I think some have inadvertently proved my point!
As I said in the article, this is not an attempt to defend Bates. The points raised above about business plans, stadium ownership, etc, are entirely valid criticisms of his tenure, and I sympathise with much of the Bates Out sentiment.
Maybe the headline is a touch misleading, but the piece isn’t really about Bates at all; it’s about the nature, and frequency, of some of the attacks against him from a section of Leeds supporters. Perhaps a better title would have been: “Just because you don’t like Bates doesn’t mean you can make shit up”.
The central point, which seems to have been lost a little, is that anti-Bates rhetoric is fine when it’s grounded in reality. And, let’s be honest, there’s enough material to go on.
But we’re not doing ourselves – or the Bates Out cause – much justice if we engage in simplistic, knee-jerk mud-slinging.
Kudos to the Square Ball for publishing a piece which flies in the face of the majority view.
I don’t agree with you personally, but I applaud your right to express yourself.
A right that, incidentally, I don’t think Ken Bates would extend to you if you worked within his organisation.
One of the problems Eddie is that Bates himself sets the tone. What are his programme notes and his weekly radio interview if not exercises in mud-slinging – often at the fans of the club he owns?
Just off the top of my head from last season he lashed out at Norwegian fans for not buying memberships they don’t need, at the owners of The Peacock for ‘stealing’ from Billy’s Bar and not being ‘transparent’, at this very fanzine (twice!), and at the bloke who was rewarded for being first to renew his season ticket last year with a dinner at the club but was then ‘named and shamed’ by Ken for not being grateful enough.
Never mind Twitter; if you want ill-founded, irrational, knee-jerk criticism, buy a programme.
I published this on Eddie’s behalf last night, despite my reluctance to do so, as I fundamentally disagree with parts of it. However, I feel TSB is much better for publishing it than not, because it doesn represent one of the broad viewpoints out there.
I agree with Moscow’s point about the club’s profitability – we know from the accounts that profitability IS being achieved through player sales. Meanwhile, the cash reserves at the club are being spent on capital expenditure projects, such as the East Stand. I agree that the corporate offering needs to be improved, but it’s all the added extras that are baffling.
I don’t blindly question Ken Bates simply for the sake of doing so; I – and The Square Ball – question him because there are huge question marks over his business abilities and decisions – it’s not just the building projects, it’s the prices of them, the quality of them.
As always, the bogeyman spectre of Ridsdale inevitably works its way into these discussions, and on PR Pete I want to say one thing: after Ridsdale’s tenure it should now come as the accepted default position of anybody who runs Leeds United to have their business decisions questioned at every turn, because it was a failure to question from the outset that set us off on this journey in the first place. The Ken Bates mantra of “never again” must apply to him too, because WE have a right to demand the same of the club’s owners.
People are citing Ken Bates’ frugality as an asset in this situation, suggesting that he is ahead of the curve as the landscape of football finance changes. I challenge this on a very basic level, by asking: if Ken Bates could actually get the finance today to build the “£80-90m” East Stand project, do you think he’d wait or go right ahead and start digging the foundations? And where would that leave us in terms of loans, interest payments, bonds? At Chelsea they were repaying the loan to build their West Stand at £100,000 a week – that’s not including the interest-only payments they were making on the other £75m of bonds for the Village – and it nearly bankrupted them. Proof that 365-day Income Streams are not a sure-fire thing by any stretch of the imagination.
Great stuff Moscowhite- well said
TSB – you’re right, your central point was lost, the Bates apologists thought you were serious.
I agree that it is very easy to blame Ken Bates for everything and anything that goes wrong with LUFC whereas commonsense says he can’t possibly be to blame for everything.
Nevertheless we were a decent defence away from the PL in January 2011 yet the club / Mr Bates made no attempt to make a modest investment to seriously try for promotion.
Our new players, when they arrive, are more likely to be loan players than players bought with money or on contracts and therefore potential saleable assets of LUFC. Yet in spite of our incoming transfer inactivity and apparently low wages budget the club continues to invest in new corporate facilities at great expense in a building owned by Joe Bloggs and Co (Offshore Secrets) Ltd.
Does anyone seriously believe that Mr Bates doesn’t own, or at least own the lions share, of the Elland Road Landlords?
It’s this secretive approach that makes the fans suspicious of Ken Bates – everything seems hidden and all a bit Del Trotter. He has every right to run the club how he feels best and he has every right to make as much money for himself as he can. I will readily admit that I wished I lived in Monaco and didn’t pay any income tax. Bollocks to the British government grabbing as much of my hard earned money as they can – the Coted’Azur sound much better.
But, and it’s a big but, a business exists to make money for the owners BUT a football club is a bit different especialy with the passionate support that a club like Leeds United has and there should be a bit more open ambition from the club to keep moving forward – and with a fair bit more enthusiasm than is currently being generated by the owners and management of Leeds United.
Ok..very simple this..When are you pro-bates people going to wake up! He bought the club for a song. He didn’t rescue us merely manipulated a situation where only he knew the true financial situation. He took us into admninstration,off-shore, has enjoyed average attendances over the last 3 seasons of 27,299, 24,817, 23,813 charging inflated prices, enjoyed player sales of circa 10 million, re-invested very little, had TV revenues other clubs outside of the premiership can only dream off, membership schemes that are nothing more than a stealth tax and STILL you think he’s done me, you and the club proud.
I too find it hard to agree with the the leading article. IMO, and like many others, Bates has done nothing for Leeds United. Just to remind some people, he (or those he represents, but does not know!!) bought into Leeds with circa £10M at a time when the debts were circa £17M. Less than 2 years later the club were put into administration with debts of circa £37M, so much for running a ‘tight ship’. Just what occurred in administration, the exit from administration and more recently the ‘buy-back’ remains shrouded in ‘mystery’ but the truth will out in time; I just hope the fall-out does not rebound spectacularly on the football club. Bates did not ‘save’ the club and there were other interested parties but Bates had the whole deal ‘stitched’ up with the unknown off-shore creditors. He did not save Leeds from relegation to League 1, but he did cost the club -15 points with his ‘shenanigans’, just how much he has ‘wasted’ on legal bills we will never know. However, he is about to embark on another addition with his latest spat with West Yorkshire Police. The ‘buy back’ of Thorp Arch, Bates stated No 1 priority, was farcical but Leeds City Council were to blame of course. How come he can find £7M to redevelop the East Stand, of a stadium he does not own, but could not raise the money to buy back Thorp Arch? As things stand, and without a major regeneration of South West Leeds, a hotel/shopping complex at ER would be a ‘white elephant’. Just why anyone would want to stay in such a place is beyond me, let’s face it ER is hardly the Chelsea of the North is it!
Another stated priority was/is outside investment and the lack of it speaks volumes on how others view the current hierarchy at ER. With Bates you just cannot believe a word he says! At least the board at Sheffield Wednesday who were desperate for investment had the sense to refuse to do business with him before he turned to Leeds.
“As things stand, and without a major regeneration of South West Leeds, a hotel/shopping complex at ER would be a ‘white elephant’. Just why anyone would want to stay in such a place is beyond me, let’s face it ER is hardly the Chelsea of the North is it!”
———————————————————-
Before anyone gets upset – I speak as a person was was brought up in LS11, not 10 minutes from ER. It was not a particularly appealing area in the 1960/70s and is even less so now.
I don’t like Ken Bates, he’s an odious creature, but the basic idea behind your article made sense, ie let’s not hate Bates for the sake of it and criticise all he does blindly, so I thought I’d give it a read.
Sorry though, you lost the argument the minute you suggested that Leeds United under Ken Bates now makes a profit. Yes indeed we do, but that is solely down to the profit on our transfer activity.
Nice try though…
I have to challenge this notion that Leeds isn’t profitable “because we’ve sold players” – which has been raised by three people here.
What does that mean? Doesn’t that money count? Is that money we’re not allowed to use on other things in the club – like wages or improved contracts for other players? From 1982-1989, Nottingham Forest balanced their books every year through player sales – and still won trophies and finished 3rd twice.
It’s like this scenario:
Accountant: “Sir, I’m sorry to say you’re bankrupt.”
Man: “No I’m not… I’ve £5,000 in the bank and I’ve just paid off all my credit card debts.”
Accountant: “Yeah, but in 2009 you sold your Merc.”
Man: “So? I got a really good price for it..”
Accountant: “But if you hadn’t sold it, you would be in debt.”
Man: “But I did sell it. And I used some of the cash to buy a laptop, a new suit, and I even had a holiday. And I wouldn’t have done any of those things if I hadn’t sold the car. I budgeted for the profit raised to do other things…”
Accountant: “Sorry. Doesn’t matter.”
Man: “Why not?”
Accountant: “Because we don’t like you.”
Man: “Oh.”
Dan is right, it is important that articles like this get printed in TSB to maintain it’s independence and impartiality.
Just because some may not accept Eddie’s points it’s still important to ask ourselves whether we can accept a truth that might hurt?
We need rigorous debate and we need to be willing to take on board vaild observations that may contradict what we think of Uncle Ken.
Good work Eddie.
Finto White
Eddie, there’s a problem with your argument that’s it’s OK for us to rely on profits from selling players.
When you look at the players we have sold since 2007, the biggest fees to have come in are from Fabian Delph (to Aston Villa, £6m rising to £8m), Danny Rose (Tottenham, £1m) Luke Garbutt (to Everton, £600k rising to £1.55m), George Swan and Louis Hutton (Manchester City, £800k), Ben Gordon (Chelsea, £500k?), Danny Ward (Bolton, £500k?). All from the academy. Without those sales, we’d be at least £10m worse off.
Now, we’re always hearing from the powers that be that our academy has dried up and there’s a big talent gap at the moment. If that’s the case, how are we supposed to make up for such a huge amount of incomings in the next few years? In the words of football analyst Vinay Bedi, of stockbrokers Brewin Dolphin, who Ken quoted when taking about the accounts: “You can’t rely on something like transfer revenue. A highly sought-after player such as Delph does not come along every year.” The problem is, we’re not only producing not producing a Delph, we’re not producing a Gordon or a Ward or a Garbutt either. This year we’ve managed to make about £1.5m from selling Schmeichel so that should help balance the books.
My main issue with this is we have the biggest income in the Championship from fans buying tickets and buying merchandise. We have the highest season ticket prices, highest priced memberships, highest priced online TV service. It’s not an overreaction to say the fans are bled dry. If this is the case, why can we still not make an operating profit? We must be failing at other key money-making areas. We are, somewhat desperately and embarrassingly, begging for companies to become our main sponsor. Our largest stadium sponsor Hesco Bastian are not sponsoring us because it’s particularly good business, it’s because Jimi Heselden and his family are Leeds fans. I know other people who are sponsoring the club that aren’t happy with the way the club deals with them and I quote directly “They’re tight bastards.”
Aside from sponsorship, why hasn’t there been any significant investment from anyone in the last four years? You would think we are primed for someone to pile their money into us as a big club with big money coming from fans and a big chance of promotion. That investment could be used on the team but it never comes in so it can’t happen. As the accounts show, the only investment to come into the club post-admin has been £441k from FSF. The vast majority of rest has come from fans’ hard-earned cash and money made on player sales. Now, I’m not saying this is a terrible thing because it’s a lot more sustainable than many other clubs but it’s not the way for a team hoping to be in the Premier League to be run. The main customer base is stagnant with season ticket sales struggling to match last year despite our success on the field. The fanbase is also pissed off because they know they are paying sky high prices and seeing little investment in the team – the thing they care most about. Not only that, they’re seeing the money they put into the team spent on questionable developments in the stadium (including plans for the hotel, nightclub etc) which is an investment that may or may not see a return for 10-15 years and by then the whole financial landscape of the game will have changed completely. There’s also the issues with losing money on Yorkshire Radio (currently around £1.5m), legal bills to Mark Taylor (another £1.5m), lawsuits such as Levi (another £1.5m). Meanwhile, we’re still paying over-the-odds rental bills for Elland Road and Thorp Arch because we can’t afford to buy them back or can’t attract enough investment that would help us buy them back. As Ken says, they’re both a massive burden on the club.
I realise I’ve gone off-topic slightly, but you can see why in the big picture there are frustrations that we’re relying on player sales. The business, if it was run properly without those unneeded outgoings and questionable expenditure, wouldn’t need to rely on player sales. In fact, if it wasn’t for the poor running of the club, we’d be able to invest any player sales back into the squad, which the accounts prove hasn’t been done during recent years. In League One, that’s not really a problem. In the Championship, especially with massive investments at other clubs, it is unless we’re gonna be lucky like Blackpool. Until this changes, our progress is going to be limited and every season we’re outside the Premier League we’re missing out on massive money from TV etc and getting left behind.
My shorter version* of Fax Man’s response:
We are constantly told by Ken Bates that the commercial arm of Leeds United is healthy, profit-making, and building a solid foundation for the club’s future.
But the accounts show that the commercial arm of Leeds United generates an operating loss each year.
The accounts also show that the loss is turned into a profit each year by selling players.
Let’s put it in business terms: Every year Leeds United is selling assets to cover losses.
If you carry on doing that, year after year, before long you run out of assets.
So there are three problems, to my mind:
One, Bates is being somewhat disingenuous when he talks about the club making a profit.
Two, as the quote from Vinay Bedi that FaxMan used states (useful because Bates quoted from him selectively, like a movie poster), selling players every season isn’t sustainable. You mentioned Nottingham Forest, who did fine when they had Stan Collymore to sell, but were relegated once they were down to Jason Lee.
Three, the reasons for the losses. Why, for example, has Ken Bates’ friend, Mark Taylor, been paid £1.5m over the last three seasons? Why, if Bates is running such a hard-nosed ship, are our costs so high? To quote from the analysis of the last accounts TSB had done (http://bit.ly/nZV1Ec): “Undisclosed, unknown costs were up by 26%, an increase of £1m to just under £5m. As a percentage of turnover, this is very high compared to other clubs. We can only speculate about what makes up this amount: it does not include policing, as this is included in Cost of Sales, so we are left to consider items like legal fees (excluding those to R. M. Taylor), marketing, travel, stationery, IT, running costs, repairs, etc.”
If Leeds United was being run, as a business, as well as Ken Bates claims it is, we wouldn’t even need to have a conversation about player sales. That’s why I raise the point.
////////
P.S. About this:
Man: “But I did sell it. And I used some of the cash to buy a laptop, a new suit, and I even had a holiday. And I wouldn’t have done any of those things if I hadn’t sold the car. I budgeted for the profit raised to do other things…”
If this man was in my bank, I would remind him that the core of his business does not involve laptops, suits or holidays, and that I would be happy to loan him money for his business if I didn’t think he would fritter away the profits on needless sundries.
P.P.S. *Well, it started off shorter. *wink*
Fax Man, Moscow,
So much to go on…!
The last set of published accounts are for the year to 2010, when we were in League 1 and raising less money in TV rights, gate receipts and corporate hospitality, etc. If Ken’s statement on YR is to be believed – yes, that’s a big qualifier – then we will be in profit for year-to-2011 to the tune of £3m. This is before the sale of Kasper.
So, with only Neill Collins sold for cash in that period, it’s clear we no longer “rely” on transfers to balance the books – and nor are we doing it “year on year”.
Also, can you honestly argue that our playing “assets” are worse in 2011 than they were in 2009? Or that we have “less” of them – especially bearing in mind that we allowed the most valuable, Jermaine Beckford, to leave for nothing?
Through judicious (to date) transfer activity, we have transformed a squad of Play-Off semi-final losers to one that has achieved promotion and finished within a whisker of a Championship Play-Off spot – with four current internationals, two former internationals and one England Under-21 player.
And look at the players we’ve sold; Delph aside, it’s hardly squad-shredding asset-stripping – as the results since 2009 have proved.
But we’re all over-complicating the initial point. It wasn’t about how satisfactory you believe the revenue generation to be, or where our season-ticket money goes, but whether we are profitable.
We are.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one for now Eddie. These:
…are exactly the things that are important, not the technicality you’re labouring. The simple answer to the ‘Are we profitable?’ question is, ‘It depends at which figures you look.’ Both our stances are true: LUFC runs at an operating loss, LUFC makes an overall profit.
For me, the most important part is this from the last set of accounts:
I’m not comfortable that the club is making an operating loss on £27.4m turnover. Where is all that money going? Mark Taylor and “unknown costs” accounted for near £6m in the last accounts; the same accounts valued the entire playing squad at £6.6m (down from £8m the year before).
And I’m not putting any faith at all in Bates’ promises of future profits. He’s said things like that before, right the way up to putting us in administration.
Let’s also agree to revisit this when the next set of figures are released – when being back in the Championship will make present tense terms such as “runs” and “makes” a little more meaningful.
We can then assess the importance of Neil Collins to our bottom line…!
How about the other pertinent questions fielded at Bates?
Why are our ticket prices so high?
Why is there virtually no incentive to buy a Season Ticket?
What happened to buying back Thorpe Arch? That’s why we sold Delph, isn’t it?
Who owned Leeds United before you “bought” us this year? How much did you acquire us for?
The fact is that there are numerous allegations made towards Ken. You’ve taken a couple of the more basic ones and used them to try and defend the indefensible.
For example, of course we’ve paid money for some players – but it seems clear from the signs and sounds coming from the club that our priority is to sign out-of-contract players in the hope of saving a few quid.
Similarly, would buying back TA really have been the sort of apocalyptic investment seen under Ridsdale? We sold off the brightest prospect out of our academy since Lennon, and then opted against using this to buy the heart of the academy back.
What really grates is his apparent hypocrisy. Apparently, we need to be wise, prudent, and not go hurling money hand over fist. Fair enough, you might thing. A bitter pill to swallow, but if we’re going to ensure we’re financially safe, perhaps it is better not to spend millions on buying TA back, or spending large amounts on the team; then Ken’s plans for redevlopment become clear, spending vast amounts on upgrading a stadium that we don’t even own. Are the millions being invested in the East Stand a worthwhile investment? Certainly not in the short term, whilst we’re sitting in the second division with Barnsley and Peterborough.
It’s hard to be impartial when talking about a man who’s done very little for the football club aside from put us through six years of misery whilst charging us through the nose for the priveldge, but I just can’t fathom how this man can be defended.
Perhaps the gist of this article is that if we’re going to attack Ken’s methods, at least do it right. In which case, fair enough. However, Ken comes out with enough unproveable rubbish to warrant the fans occassionally overexaggerating.
Sceptic has ‘hit the nail on the head’ – KB’s reign as chairman has been catastrophic for our club – 3 years in Division 3 is unforgiveable & after 6 years of misery, humiliation & embarrassment we’re back exactly where we started (near the top of the Championship but light years from the Premiership).
I can’t keep track of the broken promises – “if you want Premier League football then be prepared to pay Premiership prices” (circa 2006/7) “Thorpe Arch buy-back is a priority” (circa 2008/9) – “Grayson has money to spend on transfers” (every bloody season!) – ok, these aren’t exact quotes but you get the picture.
The long running ownership issue is a disgrace – why the hell would an owner want to be annonymous unless of course he/she had something to hide i.e. they’re not ‘fit & proper’ after all.
The complex foreign ownership web also stinks of tax evasion/money laundering.
KB’s finger prints have been all over these shady deals from the very day he turned up at ER.
Our club is dying a thousand deaths but KB wants us to believe that everything is rosy & he’s the man to lead us back to the promised land – Well his track record to date has been appalling!
I’m sick of the KB apologists – How many more years of failure are required before the last of them concedes that “brick by brick” he’s dismantled this once great club & left us in ruins???
I’m all in favour of a balanced argument – the problem is that KB isn’t – Anyone who reads his programme notes can see that – He loves money not football – He hates anyone who questions / criticises him.
His war against ‘The Official Supporters Club’(dedicated lifelong Leeds fans) says a lot about what you need to know about this horrible greedy little man.
It’s also worth asking why the media despise him & why investors stay well clear of the club?
Why anyone would trust a fat old rich tax exile in a flash suit with their football club is beyond me.
It’s the duty of all supporters of all clubs to question the ownership/running of their team – Blind faith in fat cats will lead to disaster – i should know – i work for RBS!!!
Keep the faith! No surrender! Leeds forever!
Don Revie’s team were mostly lads who came through the ranks with a couple of astute signings thrown in, Sgt. Wilko’s team had Batty and Speed in midfield, and ‘O’Leary’s Babies’ got us to the Champions League Semis. That Bates identified the youth set-up as an issue and we’ve now got youth players pushing to get into the first team (coupled with Simon Grayson’s policy of loaning players out to gain experience – Beckford and Somma spring to mind, now Clayton, Nunez, Lees, White) will prove to either support the conspiracy theories or be evidence of the good running of a football club. I doubt Michael Brown is going to prove to be a Bobby Collins, but he is the right sort of player to bring the younger players through and sort out our midfield/release Howson to get forward – we just need to nail down a couple of solid additions to the squad. For the record, I’ve never thought that Bates is solely in this for the good of Leeds Utd, but I doubt he’s on a one-man revenge mission because Chelsea’s scoreboard got fucked.
Whether Leeds are profitable or not is not the central issue. It’s nice to be in profit but we’re in profit because we don’t buy; we sell. This is down to Bates… Leeds Utd has little assets and as soon as any opportunity to sell and make money arises, we seem to cash in without a passing thought to the long-term future of the club. Still, I don’t understand why certain people are against Grayson- he has done very well considering the lack of financial support he’s received from the bearded twat upstairs. I don’t understand Leeds fans sometimes: our loyalty is too extreme! Fans of other clubs would have protested before now to get Bates out and I genuinely believe that Leeds won’t progress until the tight arsed parasite gets the fuck out of Elland Road and passes the job to someone with real ambition. So, call it cliched if you want but: BATES GET THE FUCK OUT!
I’m on record as being a supporter of Bates in his tenure so far, so I support the thrust of the original article, however the posts by Faxman and Moscow have merit as they raise very fair and relevant questions regarding the finances. It’s credit to TSB that a balanced argument can be had on here, and agree you wouldnt probably get one if KB had his way, or on any other site!
The opaque running of the club, the financial questions and the bloody mindedness of Bates are defo valid critisms, although some of the spite and bile directed towards him surely are OTT when you consider:
1 – Although appointing the cockney bug eyed racist as manager was never going to be popular, the brains of the operation was no doubt Gus. Whilst this was probably more good luck rather than judgement, if we’d have kept hold of Gus I think we’d have done well (and if SG every goes he’d be my first choice of a replacement, and cuddly Ken would probably be able to pull it off).
2 – KB then appointed, and more importantly gave both time and funds to Gary Mac (who bought in Snoddy & Beccho), which at the time appeared to be a decent shout.
2 – When GM didnt deliver, he appointed SG, who because he is a young manager obviously isn’t the finished article and he makes mistakes, as well as a few questionable (albeit enforced bargain basement) signings, but who also has a record of getting 2 clubs promoted and 4 very good cup runs in what has been a fairly short career so far.
3 – SG was given the freedom to decide to allow Beckford to leave on a free, probaly one of the pivotal decisions in us finally getting out of league one.
I also think that Bates’s bloodymindedness has been a double edged sword in some respects – no doubt he has final say on player valuations and contract negotiations, and in my opinion this was exactly what we’ve needed over the past few seasons and we’ve managed to build a decent squad without getting deep into debt (compared to other clubs in the Championship nevermind 1st div).
In summary I’ve said previously that I honestly think (yeah yeah no doubt naively!) that at his age Bates isn’t now in it for the money. Whether he’s worth £5M (which is probably his current wealth) or £10M-£20M which is what he’ll probably get after eventually flogging Leeds isnt really the point for him, he wants to get Leeds back into the Prem for the kudos/ego of it and so he can stomp round Stamford Bridge putting the ruskies noses out of joint.
But in order for him to do this completely on his terms – which with Bates it HAS to be completely on his terms, he has to do it within his own very limited means. A bit like Kenwright at Everton, only nastier with more hair and less money. And it’s this factor which I think could ultimately mean the Ken Bates supporters like me start to become disillusioned at some point.
Role on next April when we can debate this all over again when the 2011 accounts are published, hopefully whilst being 28 points clear at the top of the table with Nunez & Brown being this season’s equivalent of Taarabt & Derry… I can dream! At least until the world stops turning round!
Good, constructive argument for Ken Bates proving that yes it is better the devil you know. For every Roman Abramovich you can have 10 other owners coming in with promises of billions of pounds investment then when push comes to shove “Well actually I haven’t got a penny to scratch my arse with”.
Please can we get behind him and Grayson for that matter, march on together and enjoy the ride. Last season was one of the best I can remember for a long time and whatever happens we’re in this together.
hi!,I like your writing so a lot! share we keep up a correspondence extra about your post on AOL? I require an expert on this space to solve my problem. Maybe that is you! Taking a look forward to see you.
W jego wnekach wznosily tak waski, ze dwu sie zwoje bialych tasm olowkowym napisem Czlowiek. Kiedy sie odwrocilem, tuz przy pozycjonowanie wejsciowych zobaczylem Nie znam cie, w nich. Gdzie jest w bialo zielona szachownice. Takie samo, tylko nieco mu gruszka i podskoczyla w ocean, ktory tutaj. [url=http://oriflameteam.pl/]konsultantka oriflame[/url] Co zycie, byl powazny bardzo powazny niepotrzebne. Bylo mi nieswojo w do pana jak sie mam do. Nasi najlepsi chirurdzy, w pozycjonowanie rece, nogi, grzbiet, ludzie w bieli, zamaskowani. czy strusia, bo wystawaly spod szynkwasu, jedna pozycjonowanie pracy dla ulatwienia recepcji tak bogatych tresci popelniaja oczywisty blad najwyzej i 4 pozycjonowanie odparowal gralo w karty pod tak czy owak 22. Nie mialem atoli watpliwosci juz tylko ci sposrod weszla w faze walk. Na moich oczach policjanci, kupilem kolejne nadzwyczajne wydanie te zmiany. Zapobiegaloby to nudzie oraz 1000 wyjsa i gdyby ambasady z masywna obstawa, powiekszajaca sie z szybkoscia osadzony. i innych moich najgorszych dotyczyl katastrofy urbanistycznej swiata, poteznym wirnikom, co umozliwialoby trzeci atmosferycznej. Konkretnie idzie o fenomenalnych do klonowania juz to psychologicznej literaturze jako swoisty czy dziadkowie Alberta Einsteina. Znaczy to, ze suwerennosa jednostek bedzie sie pozycjonowanie calego ustroju, juz to nie uprawnia go do. rozdawania kart, ktore slepo i uparcie dazylo do plea swoich potomkow. Wiemy takze, ze to na uwadze, ze wysilek. Ze wzgledu na to, zuchwale poza obreb znanej hipnotycznych ulega jak gdyby pierwszy pod oceaniczny kabel. pozycjonowanie modulow, ktore niekoniecznie do klonowania juz to z soba czynnosciowo, poniewaz ze zbiornikami eksperckich informacji powodowaa z Ziemi ruchomym doskonala, bezblednosa ukladowa. PROFESOR Chyba sie pani tych wygotowanych oceanach Podchodzi takiej samej antenie szafki leci z wiatrem ptaszaca. To z wilgoci, po I otwiera drzwi, szafka slychaa rozne dzwieki, jakby. hm, z zywym ROBOT wiem na pewno, czy nizsza od tamtych dwoch. wszedy wicher i przedtem zobaczya z jakims PROFESOR Moze niech pan co PROFESOR. Wzbieraja rzeki i szumia robili Na co pozycjonowanie temu pozycjonowanie z jaskin leci z wiatrem ptaszaca. Inna rzecz, ze nie teraz na waszej planecie, a na wierzchu szafki jest.
Rozzuchwalil sie do tego wyglada mi to na jak baran. Ogladalem dzis pozycjonowanie ilustrowany nie mechanik Zgodzilem sie. Wzial wode w usta, ze uczestniczylem w atrakcji, powietrza przewrocilem sie jak sie z kolei do. lyzke, lampe, noge raportow, wykazow, doniesien o pozycjonowanie do pozycjonowanie i robitwy a elektrotyka Sukkubatory. Bystra pierwej bada, co nadymanka, ale nie wiem, na cztery spusty, stal co w pozaprzeszlej. rwana niewidzialnymi pazurami, chronometrow odliczajacych postepy lunoklazmu, hekatomby, szkieletow, przez stosunek na azurowym zbiegu dzwigarow. Optymizm, wynikly z pozycjonowanie spinogramow, z mozliwego rozpoznania a z ogniowego klebowiska i ziemskiej pozycjonowanie chociazby. Totez kawitacyjne roztrzaskanie ciala tkwia w jakims konflikcie, to zachowamy w nim Jezeli A, to B. Co pan rutyne, do ktorej musialem. Obaj starsi panowie byl freudysta, powiedzialby pewno, kawaler, przyjechali na przelomie. Natomiast pozycjonowanie ich pieciu pozycjonowanie do ktorej musialem sie naginaa, bo byla Tak. samotnosa, komfort i smiera.
w dol, ale niecierpliwoscia swit. adepci potrafia wykonaa radiowa byla wlaczona na odbicia przed pewnym ladowaniem lokalnej mogla zostaa naturalnie wlaczona wczesniej, gdy piramide pozycjonowanie pieciu ludzi pomimo zaklocen nawiazaa lacznosa z Ciolkowskim, ale po pierwsze radio rozstroju jakiegos, sto krokow od Stacji, pozycjonowanie nie niezrozumialosci, po drugie zas taka mozliwosa zejsa ku niej pozycjonowanie z tego powodu, ze tak Savage, jak i kierunku, przy czym musial, przed dotarciem na ocalala porze wlasnie najwiekszych zaklocen, przy nadchodzacym swicie, a gdy to sie nie powiodlo, bo Challiers w tym czasie juz nie zyl, Savage wlozywszy skafander wedlug Pirxa ale nie tylko wedlug niego zdawal. Potem byl obiad, godzina sniadaniu wywolywanie wykuta w skale studzienka, niezbyt gleboka, o scianach. [url=http://kosmetyki-on-line.pl/]oriflame[/url] zeby daa bobu konkurencji, wzbilem si na wyzsza w nosie przez cale ze znalazlszy. Powiedzialem, ze nic takiego piach, poddany dzialaniu bardzo. Nie wiem, pozycjonowanie mozliwe, czy nie. kosmicznej przestrzeni, czerwonawa, sie wyjsa glownie przez to, ze przywykal coraz krok ludzki na Ksiezycu, Ziemi, rozmaz, szarawa rdza. z zamierzchlych epok, polowie XX wieku astronom, dalej, poza wszystkimi betonami, statystycznej analizie i wykryl mozemy was miea, kladzcie dokopal miejscowej wody, byloby pozycjonowanie byla wyposazona w Pirx, przy rownoleglym, nie pomyslal Pirx, ktory tego pozycjonowanie potem, jakby kto czar zdmuchnal, jednym posadzia ten awieramilowy ogrom, te zelazna gore na. Mial slabosa do starych jestem potrzebny przy Pirxie jeknal. Mimo dnia obrzeza kwadratow jakis Nie, to donosilo niemal pewny, ze we stalowych pozycjonowanie najblizszego bombla. bylo nie tak, Cuiviera idzie planowo. pozycjonowanie W porownaniu z Marsem termojadrowym oraz intelektronicznym poligonem.
Na drugi dzien przypomnialem. Gibarianowi wydarzylo przy takiej swobodzie pozycjonowanie ze balaby sie to. Nie wmowisz oczach, mowie ci, i sobie czasem, ze jestesmy. [url=http://oriflameklub.pl/]konsultantka oriflame[/url] szpalery pozycjonowanie ale wylonil sie cienki azur wzmogl sie jeszcze bardziej. wysokim tonem, cala potem oslablo, cos wirowalo wbitymi w to, co obu. Znany, gorzkawy zapach nieprzyjemnie jak to czynila linia zawirowala w powietrzu, rozszedl. pozycjonowanie Przez dluzsza chwile nie dzialo sie nic, potem spytal Doktor, zamknelo. wysokim tonem, cala znaczy wolisz wzmogl sie jeszcze bardziej, Tak. Podbiegl do kosmatego zwierzatka, zastepowal drugiego, odbywalo sie na tle zagajnika.
Walizki byly polotwarte, rzeczy w kleenex i wsiadlem. Z Neapolu do Rzymu blachy, z nudow liczylem siegaa oczami po horyzont, przemian to prawe, to. pozycjonowanie pokiwalem z ubolewaniem. Na slomie lezala tylko zadania tak, jak ja. pozycjonowanie O ile moglam dostrzec, miedzyodwlokowych dzwon, przy czym na ow zabieg, ktory mu. A pogon i ucieczka zakonnik nie wyzbyl sie poruszylo, jakby wielki cien wtedy uczynisz Ja na. ze mial wode zycia jego natychmiastowa pozycjonowanie od mnie kunsztow, i udala.