Come on Barca

[Man Called Sun]

It's inevitable that it would happen this way, but people's beef with this Barcelona team only really seems to be being constantly told how fucking brilliant they are, cos we live in a world where we are constantly being told how fucking brilliant everything is.

But this team really is fucking brilliant, and I'm happy enough to just watch the bastards getting on with that.

And on the diving thing, Busquets and Alves might well be cunts for it, but that doesn't mean the rest of the team are.

I really love and admire Barcelona as a city and a club, and the bigest reasons to do so will still be there long after Guardiola, Messi and Xavi are gone, but this team really is unbelievable, so let's just enjoy watching them eh?

[gazurtoids]

It's inevitable that it would happen this way, but people's beef with this Barcelona team only really seems to be being constantly told how fucking brilliant they are, cos we live in a world where we are constantly being told how fucking brilliant everything is.

But this team really is fucking brilliant, and I'm happy enough to just watch the bastards getting on with that.

And on the diving thing, Busquets and Alves might well be cunts for it, but that doesn't mean the rest of the team are.

I really love and admire Barcelona as a city and a club, and the bigest reasons to do so will still be there long after Guardiola, Messi and Xavi are gone, but this team really is unbelievable, so let's just enjoy watching them eh?

You're close, but not quite right. I think many people's beef isn't being told that they're brilliant -- they can see that for themselves and most will readily agree, I reckon -- it's being told, as you did, that we must enjoy them.

The idea that this is the one, true, pure way to play the game is constantly being advanced, as though anyone who finds themselves stifling a yawn while watching Barcelona is some kind of anti-aesthete.

Personally, I find them quite a dull proposition. I admire the technical proficiency involved and its effectiveness is there for all to see but, as a spectacle, it's stultifying. So, no, I'm afraid I can't sit back and enjoy watching them.

[Man Called Sun]

You're close, but not quite right. I think many people's beef isn't being told that they're brilliant -- they can see that for themselves and most will readily agree, I reckon -- it's being told, as you did, that we must enjoy them.

The idea that this is the one, true, pure way to play the game is constantly being advanced, as though anyone who finds themselves stifling a yawn while watching Barcelona is some kind of anti-aesthete.

Personally, I find them quite a dull proposition. I admire the technical proficiency involved and its effectiveness is there for all to see but, as a spectacle, it's stultifying. So, no, I'm afraid I can't sit back and enjoy watching them.

Well fair play, I'm surprised that you find them dull to be honest, but yeah, it's all subjective innit.

[moscowhite]

I don't find Barcelona dull at all. It's not like they just knock the ball around at the back - it all happens in the opposition's half, and it's always geared to attacking, to getting through the massed ranks of the defense. Even when they're apparently just tapping the ball around, it's with intent, and what makes them so exciting and so dangerous is that they seem able to make a goal at any moment. You're never safe.

There was a pass from Messi the other week that took five defenders out of the game, and it was simply a jaw dropping piece of play. This Barcelona team have made my jaw drop like that more often than any other team I can think of. It didn't even end up with a goal.

There is an open question in my mind about how much of this is purely down to Messi, as it always seems to be him that provides that moment that'll make you gasp. But I love watching this team play.

As for the 'pressure' to enjoy them: well, whatever. Ignoring the media bull shit is always the best idea.

[dirty leeds]

I find them intermittently dull. When they're playing a team who they're clearly much better than and there's realistically no chance for the other lot - and you can see the inferiority written all over that team's play - it's boring because the outcome is inevitable. They don't even have to be that good to win.
In bigger games, when they have to 'up' the performance, it can be exciting and amazing.

As for 'best of all time', I don't think you really can compare. Messi is brilliant, yes. But Cruyff, Best, Pele and several members of the Revie team were also brilliant in a time when defenders could kick them a lot more. Messi and Co are protected to a larger extent. Not saying it's a bad thing, or that we should go back to how it was, but just a fact. If you could kick Barcelona more and get away with it, you could stop them playing more.

[gazurtoids]

I think it probably results from the degree to which they dominate possession, tbh. Even in those games where they rattle 5+ goals in, you seem to spend a lot of time watching them knock the ball around. After a few matches, i tired of it.

Come to think of it, I used a not dissimilar argument against Superman in the film thread I think!

[Phil LUFC]

I think it probably results from the degree to which they dominate possession, tbh. Even in those games where they rattle 5+ goals in, you seem to spend a lot of time watching them knock the ball around. After a few matches, i tired of it.

Come to think of it, I used a not dissimilar argument against Superman in the film thread I think!

This. As a neutral, I enjoy watching them play in the big games, was disappointed how poor they seemed away to Milan, too many stray passes affecting their rhythm (as well as milan being a good side), also watched the 1st half vs Levente, got bored, turned it off.

They're good, very good, and when it works its a joy to watch, but its too slow for my liking, its not their style but I prefer to see more goal mouth action, more high quality strikes from all over the place and less tippy tappy stuff leading to tap ins. Not saying they do this exclusively, just more than the likes of Real Madrid who are free scoring this season. For those who saw it, the chance Pedro had at the back stick to volley one first time when he chose to lay it back out to the edge of the box... he's maybe low on confidence personally but as a general rule, if the pass is safer than the shot, they pass, so long as the reciever is placed to sustain the pressure.

In saying this, I tend to find football difficult to watch in general as a neutral, I need a vested interest in the outcome of a match.

[gazurtoids]

As for the 'pressure' to enjoy them: well, whatever. Ignoring the media bull shit is always the best idea.

Yeah, I was referring to football fans in general, such as in discussions like this, rather than the media.

[Mustafaster]

I can see why some people don't like to watch them.
It's a very different brand of football than we've been used to.
English footie culture has a large "Blood on yer studs" element, and it's exciting to see players get stuck in, blood and thunder gets the adrenaline going. Fair enough.
Me I like the technical stuff, I love those little triangles on the edge of the box, it's fascinating to see how they make very slight positional changes during a match, and they make the game wider than any other team, they always have men hugging both touchlines, and I like to see that. But not to everybody's taste, I know. There are times when I wish someone would just twat it from 25 yards out, but it's not gonna happen.
As for the diving issue, yes Busquets and Alves are the two main culprits, but it happens in every team to a greater or lesser extent, always has (Francis fuckin Lee), but this Barca team is considerably less guilty than, say, Scum or Madrid in this respect imo.
Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas ... they all try to stay on their feet when they can.

I hope they fuckin trounce Chelsea, can't stand the cunts.

[thechubbyone]

I hope they fuckin trounce Chelsea, can't stand the cunts.

Finally something we can all agree on.

[Man Called Sun]

I've been lucky enough to see this team play at the Nou Camp and I was sat with my brother who has only a passing interest in football, but he was amazed at how slow it seemed to the games he'd seen in this country. Like i say, it's all subjective innit, but I find this team totally amazing, basically. The basic philosophy of keeping hold of the ball and passing to eachother, all with the intention of winning, it just isn't done in this country. I agree about the jaw dropping moments too, even this week Sanchez and Messi both came out with them sort of things.

If the opposition is rolling over for them then that's their problem. If the opposition aren't good enough to resist that's their problem. I enjoyed seeing Milan give them a game the other week though, no one likes to see a trouncing for the sake of a trouncing every week.

And media bullshit is media bullshit. That game against Leverkusen, no one seemed to want to say just how utterly apalling Leverkusen were. That grated a bit. But yeah, just mute it.

EDIT TO ADD:

Another thing on the media, they're all got their cocks out over Barcelona (as I have, to be fair), but no one bothers to criticise, like trying to work out how they're still second on the league, for one thing. Ronaldo's having just as extraordinary a season as Messi in many ways, the flash bastard.

[eric olthwaite]

Yeah, I'd pretty much side with the comments made by Gaz and dirty.

To me, the great quality of football as a game is that, because of the extended unbroken duration of play and because it is generally low scoring there is, I think, a greater chance that a lower quality team will beat a higher quality team than in any other major sport. Good.

I can't get moist about any number of tricky passes if the context of the game is that there's sod all chance of Barcelona getting beat.

Overall, I'd argue that the Champion's League as a whole would be more enjoyable to watch if Messi, Xavi and Iniesta etc all played for different teams.

[MightyWhite]

I think it probably results from the degree to which they dominate possession, tbh. Even in those games where they rattle 5+ goals in, you seem to spend a lot of time watching them knock the ball around. After a few matches, i tired of it.

Come to think of it, I used a not dissimilar argument against Superman in the film thread I think!

I see where you're coming from. I watched QPR v Swansea the other day, and there were serveral 'boring boring Swansea' etc chants coming from the QPR fans as Swansea knocked the ball around in their own half. Cue a deluge of incredulous journalists tweeting and retweeting in a frenzy, about how absurd the QPR fans are at even suggesting this beautiful display of possession could possibly be boring.

It is boring. Technically superb, but boring nonetheless. And I don't think you have to be a stereotypical knuckle dragging British neanderthal to think this.

[gazurtoids]

English footie culture has a large "Blood on yer studs" element, and it's exciting to see players get stuck in, blood and thunder gets the adrenaline going. Fair enough.

Argh! This annoys me more than anything else: the idea that if you don't get turned on by Barcelona suffocating football matches by obsessively keeping the other side from touching the ball, you must be a blood & thunder "get stuck in" throwback. It's a false dichotomy.

[Man Called Sun]

I see where you're coming from. I watched QPR v Swansea the other day, and there were serveral 'boring boring Swansea' etc chants coming from the QPR fans as Swansea knocked the ball around in their own half. Cue a deluge of incredulous journalists tweeting and retweeting in a frenzy, about how absurd the QPR fans are at even suggesting this beautiful display of possession could possibly be boring.

It is boring. Technically superb, but boring nonetheless. And I don't think you have to be a stereotypical knuckle dragging British neanderthal to think this.

I know you're just making a comparison of reaction but Swansea, for all their brilliance and the genius of, erm, Danny Graham, are not Barcelona. And the whole aim of Barcelona's play is to get the ball forward, rather than just stroke it around at the back for time wasting or whatever. They keep the ball, and when the opportunity comes they stick it in.

And fuck journalists on twatter, they're all full of shit.

[moscowhite]

English footie culture has a large "Blood on yer studs" element, and it's exciting to see players get stuck in, blood and thunder gets the adrenaline going. Fair enough.

Argh! This annoys me more than anything else: the idea that if you don't get turned on by Barcelona suffocating football matches by obsessively keeping the other side from touching the ball, you must be a blood & thunder "get stuck in" throwback. It's a false dichotomy.

I think the falseness of that dichotomy can cut both ways, though. Just because I like what Barcelona are doing, doesn't mean that I don't thrill to a thunderous end to end game. The 1989/90 title video hasn't been usurped in my house.

(in fact about fifteen years ago I had a long running argument with a lover of Dutch total football, about my outrageous opinion that the seventies Holland side would have been improved by David Batty.)

For my money, though, Barcelona have taken their particular style somewhere new. Nobody has played like this before, and that's why I find it so interesting. There are two sides to the interest: 1) will someone find a way to stop them? Mourinho v Guardiola has been amazing to watch; and 2) where will they take it next? Messi is about the same age as Ben Parker. They're not done yet.

To turn your back on it all just because people are "going on about it too much" seems daft to me.

[gazurtoids]

English footie culture has a large "Blood on yer studs" element, and it's exciting to see players get stuck in, blood and thunder gets the adrenaline going. Fair enough.

Argh! This annoys me more than anything else: the idea that if you don't get turned on by Barcelona suffocating football matches by obsessively keeping the other side from touching the ball, you must be a blood & thunder "get stuck in" throwback. It's a false dichotomy.

I think the falseness of that dichotomy can cut both ways, though. Just because I like what Barcelona are doing, doesn't mean that I don't thrill to a thunderous end to end game. The 1989/90 title video hasn't been usurped in my house.

(in fact about fifteen years ago I had a long running argument with a lover of Dutch total football, about my outrageous opinion that the seventies Holland side would have been improved by David Batty.)

For my money, though, Barcelona have taken their particular style somewhere new. Nobody has played like this before, and that's why I find it so interesting. There are two sides to the interest: 1) will someone find a way to stop them? Mourinho v Guardiola has been amazing to watch; and 2) where will they take it next? Messi is about the same age as Ben Parker. They're not done yet.

To turn your back on it all just because people are "going on about it too much" seems daft to me.

Of course not: that much is implied in my labelling of it as a false dichotomy. I don't believe I've said at any point that all of those who do find enjoyment in Barcelona's style don't find it in others, have I?

Let's be clear about your last point, though, because you have it arse about face: I haven't dismissed Barcelona because of the fawning over them, in reverse-snobbery fashion. I find them, for the most part, an unentertaining spectacle in their own right but the apparent consensus (albeit not on this thread) that one must find them beautiful and enjoyable, or, rather, that theirs is the ultimate/ideal style to which all others should aspire, really irritates me. My opinion of FCB is [as far as possible] independent of the wider debate about them. It's an important distinction. My back hasn't been turned but I do choose to look elsewhere.

Who was David van Batty pencilled in to replace, incidentally?

[Phil LUFC]

Who was David van Batty pencilled in to replace, incidentally?

And did you feel vindicated when Mark Van Bommel became an integral part of the dutch side (albeit in a different era and a less total football side).

[Man Called Sun]

(in fact about fifteen years ago I had a long running argument with a lover of Dutch total football, about my outrageous opinion that the seventies Holland side would have been improved by David Batty.)

Surely there isn't a side that wouldn't?

[moscowhite]

[
Of course not: that much is implied in my labelling of it as a false dichotomy. I don't believe I've said at any point that all of those who do find enjoyment in Barcelona's style don't find it in others, have I?

Let's be clear about your last point, though, because you have it arse about face: I haven't dismissed Barcelona because of the fawning over them, in reverse-snobbery fashion. I find them, for the most part, an unentertaining spectacle in their own right but the apparent consensus (albeit not on this thread) that one must find them beautiful and enjoyable, or, rather, that theirs is the ultimate/ideal style to which all others should aspire, really irritates me. My opinion of FCB is [as far as possible] independent of the wider debate about them. It's an important distinction. My back hasn't been turned but I do choose to look elsewhere.

Who was David van Batty pencilled in to replace, incidentally?

I think there are crossed purposes all over, really. I wouldn't prop anyone's eyes open with matchsticks and force them to marvel at Barcelona, and I wouldn't even particularly hold them up as an ideal for other clubs - although I'd like to see someone as good as them at what they do take them on. And I don't think for a moment that their way is the way football 'must' be played. So trying to work out where people are picking those views up is tricky.

I do think someone is missing something good if they're not looking at the current Barcelona/Spain teams and seeing something great is going on, but that's not really a specific Barcelona thing, it applies to anything. I'm speaking as neither a musican nor a music writer, but it's like when someone doesn't love a band you love, isn't it? "How can you not hear the genius in Mark King's thumbs of fury? Are you deaf?"

As I recall, I didn't have anyone specific in mind to be dropped for Batty. It was more a general point about the philosophy: my mate saw nirvana as a team of Cruyffs, I said that nine Cruyffs was the most you could have, because you'd need a Batty in there with them. Mark van Bommel proves nothing because Batty > van Bommel and Holland are still losers; Barcelona maybe disprove my theory because you could argue that Puyol, probably their most limited player, has got more technical chops than a lot of top level midfielders.

(I'd still say Batty > Puyol, though. And I reckon Batty at his peak would have been a player Guardiola could sign and fit into the Barcelona system, without having to grow up at La Masia.)

On preview:

(in fact about fifteen years ago I had a long running argument with a lover of Dutch total football, about my outrageous opinion that the seventies Holland side would have been improved by David Batty.)

Surely there isn't a side that wouldn't?

Aye, that was pretty much my take on it.