EUROSCEPTICS

[Supernorm]

Anyone else sick of hearing Prime Ministers promising referendums on grabbing powers back from the EU, (before they are elected) and end up getting zilch back in the long run. Cameron's currently stating that he doesn't want to rock the boat in this current delicate financial predicament, when he should be goose stepping his way into Brussels and demanding that the French farmers can fuck off with their common agricultural policy and the Spanish mega trawlers can fuck off from our waters.

We're British, we've been independant since......... I don't know, possibly the Norman invasion, and we'll never be a little cog in someone else's wheel, they're gently leading us into a EU superstate. (One that is being crushed under it's own uncompetitive liberal weight).

Anyway, i suppose this topic is for any eurosceptics amongst you like me, but check out this article, it's long but tells Cameron that the UK has never had a better opportunity in it's EU history, to put right an awful lot of wrongs.

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/termsofendearment.pdf

[jackos]

British, we've been independant since......... I don't know, possibly the Norman invasion, and we'll never be a little cog in someone else's wheel

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/termsofendearment.pdf

Where have you been for the last twenty years? Britain has sold its resources, outsourced its industry, dismantled its army, n mortgaged its future to pay for a second hand kitchen.

[eric olthwaite]

There are a lot of things to question about our membership of the EU, but the day I read anything from the fucktarded fascist filth of the Taxavoiders Alliance is a long way from dawning.

[Blackwhite]

How's life in Montreal then, good? Relatively unaffected by Europe? Nice.

[Vampire]

I think with the Euro you have a classic example of what happens when politicians try to put together a politically motivated economic construct without understanding economics.

I said at the time that it was a big risk to create a single currency and monetary policy for so many countries all with different economies, interests, cultures - and without proper alignment of their economic cycles or fiscal regimes. Funnily enough, the ERM debacle in the UK in the early nineties provided an indication of the sort or problems this can create (albeit the ERM wasn't a single currency). The UK Government back then effectively pegged the pound sterling to the Deutschmark at a time when Germany needed higher interest rates to attract capital inflows for re-unification and the UK needed lower rates to fight recession. The result was that the UK's economy was damaged by those higher rates (its recession more painful than it needed to), whilst your Government lost billions in a futile attempt to defeat the currency speculators by buying over-valued pounds!

Similarly, some (agree not all) of the current problems with the Euro are the result of a single monetary policy for countries with different needs and fiscal disciplines. One of the reasons Greece and Italy were able to rack up so much debt is because they benefited from the loose monetary policy that wouldn't have been available to them if they'd had their own currency and their own central bank. I guess now this error of construct is laid bare - the Euro is at a crossroads. It either needs to break up (to a greater or lesser extent), or it needs a fiscal union to go with the monetary union. I don't think muddling through will be an option much longer.

[topbin]

I think with the Euro you have a classic example of what happens when politicians try to put together a politically motivated economic construct without understanding economics.

I said at the time that it was a big risk to create a single currency and monetary policy for so many countries all with different economies, interests, cultures - and without proper alignment of their economic cycles or fiscal regimes. Funnily enough, the ERM debacle in the UK in the early nineties provided an indication of the sort or problems this can create (albeit the ERM wasn't a single currency). The UK Government back then effectively pegged the pound sterling to the Deutschmark at a time when Germany needed higher interest rates to attract capital inflows for re-unification and the UK needed lower rates to fight recession. The result was that the UK's economy was damaged by those higher rates (its recession more painful than it needed to), whilst your Government lost billions in a futile attempt to defeat the currency speculators by buying over-valued pounds!

Similarly, some (agree not all) of the current problems with the Euro are the result of a single monetary policy for countries with different needs and fiscal disciplines. One of the reasons Greece and Italy were able to rack up so much debt is because they benefited from the loose monetary policy that wouldn't have been available to them if they'd had their own currency and their own central bank. I guess now this error of construct is laid bare - the Euro is at a crossroads. It either needs to break up (to a greater or lesser extent), or it needs a fiscal union to go with the monetary union. I don't think muddling through will be an option much longer.

You OK Vamps? Only one sentence of this makes me think you're a complete fucktard. Pretty impressive. Hate to say it, but I agree with pretty much everything you've said. The Euro is a good theoretical idea (have one currency which can trade against the dollar and mean that free trade across Europe is a lot easier), but the Eurozone just doesn't have enough control over it's participants for it to work.

[SimonB]

Have to agree with both Vampire and Topbin.

In order to make the Euro work there needs to be a centralised fiscal policy that all countries have to adhere to and an acceptance that the richer countries will have to subsidise the poorer countries.

[Ponte]

Have to agree with both Vampire and Topbin.

In order to make the Euro work there needs to be a centralised fiscal policy that all countries have to adhere to and an acceptance that the richer countries will have to subsidise the poorer countries.

and the chances of that happening are?

[SimonB]

Have to agree with both Vampire and Topbin.

In order to make the Euro work there needs to be a centralised fiscal policy that all countries have to adhere to and an acceptance that the richer countries will have to subsidise the poorer countries.

and the chances of that happening are?

Probably minimal but the alternative of a break up (or partial break up) of the Euro comes with a very heavy price tag.

[burnleyinexile]

Europe is full of foreigners, don't want 'em, don't need 'em. Wogs start at Calais.

[AndyPaul]

Burnley is full of foreigners, don't want 'em, don't need 'em. Wogs start at Turf Moor

Corrected it for you mate.

[jackos]

Have to agree with both Vampire and Topbin.

In order to make the Euro work there needs to be a centralised fiscal policy that all countries have to adhere to and an acceptance that the richer countries will have to subsidise the poorer countries.

I don't think many people in Europe would argue with you on that, I would object to anyone lifting Britain as a shining example of how things should be done outside the single currency... Britain is becoming a nation of finger pointing slobs, I know that doesn't go for the vast majority of Brits, but it's sickening to see how many people are happy to sit on their arses n blame some other cunt for their woes.

[SmithyHK]

Have to agree with both Vampire and Topbin.

In order to make the Euro work there needs to be a centralised fiscal policy that all countries have to adhere to and an acceptance that the richer countries will have to subsidise the poorer countries.

I don't think many people in Europe would argue with you on that, I would object to anyone lifting Britain as a shining example of how things should be done outside the single currency... Britain is becoming a nation of finger pointing slobs, I know that doesn't go for the vast majority of Brits, but it's sickening to see how many people are happy to sit on their arses n blame some other cunt for their woes.

Finger pointing slobs is a bit too rich. If you mean this as people being critical, even cynical by nature, this attribute is to be encouraged in my opinion.

Crunch time definitely is coming. Those states currently straddling the line in terms of deeper involvement in Team Europe are now being presented with a more extreme choice - basinally all-in or fold.

With monumental differences remaining between menber states in terms of legislature, singular interests, social policy, historical and cultural differences - a closer union, monetary or otherwise, likely isn't workable right now.

For me the group breaking into smaller, like-minded factions may not be the worst option presently on offer.

[Mustafaster]

Have to agree with both Vampire and Topbin.

In order to make the Euro work there needs to be a centralised fiscal policy that all countries have to adhere to and an acceptance that the richer countries will have to subsidise the poorer countries.

I don't think many people in Europe would argue with you on that, I would object to anyone lifting Britain as a shining example of how things should be done outside the single currency... Britain is becoming a nation of finger pointing slobs, I know that doesn't go for the vast majority of Brits, but it's sickening to see how many people are happy to sit on their arses n blame some other cunt for their woes.

Finger pointing slobs is a bit too rich for me. If you mean this as being critical, even cynical by nature, this attribute is to be encouraged in my opinion.

Crunch time definitely is coming. Those states currently straddling the line in terms of deeper involvement in Team Europe are now being presented with a more extreme choice - basinally all-in or fold.

With monumental differences remaining between menber states in terms of legislature, singular interests, social policy, historical and cultural differences - a closer union, monetary or otherwise, likely isn't workable right now.

For me the group breaking into smaller, like-minded factions may not be the worst option presently on offer.

Hmmm...
A lot is made of the differences between European countries and there are some important ones.In terms of Western Europe it really comes down to one major difference. If you draw a line demarcating the limits of the Roman Empire you find a pretty close realtion between Latinate and Germanic Europe. There are other difference obviously but this is the big one. It's where all the major wars have been fought and where all the cultural differences are.
However over the 2000 years since all of Europe has also had a lot in common historically, above all war.
I think thta what unites us is more important than what divides us. I don't see how a Balkanisation is in anyone's interests. Yes the Euro is in deep shit and may or may not see off the current problems (I think it will, might be wrong), but a break up of the EU would be disastrous imo.
Europe needs more integration, not less.

[SmithyHK]

A lot is made of the differences between European countries and there are some important ones.In terms of Western Europe it really comes down to one major difference. If you draw a line demarcating the limits of the Roman Empire you find a pretty close realtion between Latinate and Germanic Europe. There are other difference obviously but this is the big one. It's where all the major wars have been fought and where all the cultural differences are.
However over the 2000 years since all of Europe has also had a lot in common historically, above all war.
I think thta what unites us is more important than what divides us. I don't see how a Balkanisation is in anyone's interests. Yes the Euro is in deep shit and may or may not see off the current problems (I think it will, might be wrong), but a break up of the EU would be disastrous imo.
Europe needs more integration, not less.

Musta,
Points taken, and remain mindful that recent contributions on this thread predominantly come from expatriates.
However the current terms on offer for further intergration still concern me, rather than the overrall aim of unification.
What cements Europe long term shouldn't be decided because things are going to shit, and attaching our carabiner to a party already slipping off the mountain seems daft.
The current model doesn't work. Unite further later, and in smoother times, I propose.....

[WHITETHROUGH]

I like Europe but I don’t like where it has gone since the British public voted for the UK's continued membership of the European Economic Community in 1975.

I personally want a referendum....in or out.

As for more Europe...give me a break. There is a world out there to trade with and as a country that is where we should be looking. With hindsight we effectively turned our backs on the Commonwealth when we turned to Europe with the vote in 75, but that is where we should be looking again.

European membership was promoted as bringing countries closer with greater prosperity. Well Europe is eating its self because the Euro was a vanity project that is going wrong, and now countries are going bankrupt....and before any one trots out the line that being in the EU has kept the peace for 60 odd years...try Nato and the Yanks for the reality.

Do I think Cameron will deliver much......nope not really because he is a spineless fucker, though I would love him to prove me wrong?

[Mustafaster]

Yes there is a clear difference between the UK's take on this and the rest of Europe. It's no accident that the UK didn't join the Euro, and right now it looks like a good swerve. Time will tell if it was.
The UK's position has always been on the periphery of Europe since the Romans took their bat home in 400AD. In addition there has been no succesful invasion of Britain since 1066, a fuck of a long time to have the same ruling class in power.
The current terms on offer for the Euro zone are about as good as we are ever gonna get imo. The corrupt and incompetent politicians who are in large part responsible for the mess have now largely been kicked out and the people who have replaced them seem to understand that the party is over. Whether they will be able to swing it with their electorates remainsd to be seen. There's a real danger that the drastic cuts will plunge the area into lasting recession and if that happens all bets are off.
And then there is the problem with the banks (PNB went very close to the wire last Tuesday night and was within 2 hours of defaulting). The credit rating agencies aren't helping either, chucking petrol on the fire every chance they get.
The UK should stay as far away as poss for the time being imo, but for the rest of Europe I'd like to see a common fiscal policy.

[burnleyinexile]

Burnley is full of foreigners, don't want 'em, don't need 'em. Wogs start at Turf Moor

Corrected it for you mate.

[Ontolly]

Seems to me that Basel play in the same colours as Palace. Coincidence? Maybe ....

[jackos]

As for more Europe...give me a break. There is a world out there to trade with and as a country that is where we should be looking. With hindsight we effectively turned our backs on the Commonwealth when we turned to Europe with the vote in 75, but that is where we should be looking again.
?

The world has changed since Britain turned its back on the commonwealth, do you honestly think British politicians would accept sitting at a table where India has the deck? Where they are treated like a senile old relative who nobody really wanted to invite, but everyone feels they have to cause they're family?

I don't know what choices Britain or the rest of Europe have to be honest. I think we might see a split eventually, A n B team, A team with Northern Europe begging the Scandinavians to join a common currency, n the door being left open for the UK. The economies of Northern Europe are still very strong, and are well placed to play a central roll in the global economy. Not sure about Spain, it still as very close ties to Brazil, so I guess that will help them out, I think most of Santanders profits come from South America dont they? Assume France will tag along with the Germans.

Or perhaps the Indian bubble will burst, they will price themselves out of the global market as well? N maybe parents will realise their children are better served with one well made toy from the UK, than a run full of plastics from China. That people will see the sense in paying 20 quid for a decent tshirt, rather than 2 quid for something fit for nowt after 2 washes, that DMs from the UK will be on everyone's feet, n not the shit they make in
wherever-the-fuck-they-went. The madness of it all has to become clear to everyone eventually surely?