EUROSCEPTICS

[jackos]

. Perhaps corporal punishment isn't the answer...

Anyway, time to go to Hospital again. I've had my say and thats that.

I thought we agreed that yesterday Hope all goes well at the hospital mate. Talking to my family in Leeds the NHS is one if the things in the UK that us still holding out, even after 3 decades of abuse by politicos doctors n nurses stil seem to be holding their own. Thank fuck.

[SimonB]

Only just got a chance to respond Si, sorry. There will be some assumptions about what you meant, so no offense if I've got it arse-first


I'm afraid I'm also deeply sceptical about a number of those cases you refer to, and if I was being a real cunt I'd insist you proved they were real, and implied what you've been led to believe they did. There is a lot of "BRUSSELS WANTS TO BAN THE BANANA!" shite out there in these strange times

For each of those cases I could link to a Daily Mail story

As to the banana story no the EU didn't want to ban the banana but they did try and define the standard shape for bananas allowed to be imported into the EU!

I am, as is no doubt clear, very eurosceptic, always have been and I believe that all of the necessary protections for peoples rights were already perfectly clear and covered by existing UK legislation and we did not need to go further. And then to make things worse we allowed the HR act to be abused by criminals and their lawyers something which has cost our country a fortune.

[gazurtoids]

Only just got a chance to respond Si, sorry. There will be some assumptions about what you meant, so no offense if I've got it arse-first


I'm afraid I'm also deeply sceptical about a number of those cases you refer to, and if I was being a real cunt I'd insist you proved they were real, and implied what you've been led to believe they did. There is a lot of "BRUSSELS WANTS TO BAN THE BANANA!" shite out there in these strange times

For each of those cases I could link to a Daily Mail story

As to the banana story no the EU didn't want to ban the banana but they did try and define the standard shape for bananas allowed to be imported into the EU!

This is what's commonly known as a Euromyth, repeated ad infinitum by anti-Europeans no matter its veracity. I'd say that the Daily Mail wouldn't be the best place to get your EU info from, but I expect you would say that about the banana-myth-debunking explanations in The Independent and on the BBC. In which case, why not go straight to the horse itself and get it from said beast's mouth via the European Commisson website, which states:

Bananas are classified according to quality and size for international trade. Individual governments and the industry have in the past had their own standards with the latter's, in particular, being very stringent. The European Commission was asked by national agriculture ministers and the industry to draft legislation in this area. Following extensive consultation with the industry, the proposed quality standards were adopted by national ministers in Council in 1994.
The diameter of the fruit is a way of measuring its maturity/development. Fruit grown organically or conventionally have to reach a certain degree of maturity in order to have a reasonable chance of satisfying the consumer. The minimum diameters laid down by standards are usually fixed at a level at which most fruit are of a satisfactory quality for consumption. This minimum stage of development does not depend on the method of production, but more on cultivation techniques diminishing the number of fruits on the tree to allow a better development of the remaining ones. That is why there is no specific requirement for organic produce. The contrary would mean organic farmers being allowed to sell smaller produce.

Cucumbers do not have to be straight. There are grading rules, which were called for by representatives from the industry to enable buyers in one country to know what quality and quantity they would get when purchasing a box, unseen, from another country. Nothing is banned under these rules: they simply help to inform traders of particular specifications. The EU Single Market rules are identical to pre-existing standards set down both by the UN/OECD and the UK.

The sad thing is you can find this being debunked as far back as 1994 in the New York Times, of all places. And yet it lives on, the common-sense-defying outrage-manufacturing fact zombie of British euroscepticism.

[Blackwhite]

Si, are you missing my point: that we did not sign up to anything further than we were already covered by. It is entirely a myth!

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

[burnleyinexile]

. Perhaps corporal punishment isn't the answer...

Anyway, time to go to Hospital again. I've had my say and thats that.

I thought we agreed that yesterday Hope all goes well at the hospital mate. Talking to my family in Leeds the NHS is one if the things in the UK that us still holding out, even after 3 decades of abuse by politicos doctors n nurses stil seem to be holding their own. Thank fuck.

Ah, but I threw in a 'perhaps' just in case

Thanks for that mate, I said to one of the radiographers today, I'm glad this has happened to me here (rather it hadn't, but you get the gist). The NHS truly is the jewel in the crown (although top heavy in clipboard carriers in suits).

[SimonB]

Si, are you missing my point: that we did not sign up to anything further than we were already covered by. It is entirely a myth!

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

I disagree mate we did sign up for more, in my opinion anyway. The way the act is formatted around rights that are then left open to interpretation by the legal profession has opened up many more cases than would have otherwise been possible and in addition because its via an EU act we have no right to make amendments to reduce the number of cases being bought under the act.

I will stick with not thinking thank you

[Blackwhite]

Si, are you missing my point: that we did not sign up to anything further than we were already covered by. It is entirely a myth!

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

I disagree mate we did sign up for more, in my opinion anyway. The way the act is formatted around rights that are then left open to interpretation by the legal profession has opened up many more cases than would have otherwise been possible and in addition because its via an EU act we have no right to make amendments to reduce the number of cases being bought under the act.

I will stick with not thinking thank you

OK, this is getting a little silly.

Si, I promise you, it is not an EU act. Re-read what I posted and the wikipedia entry, then click through to the link therein which talks about the UK legislation.

There is a case to make that it is now easier to defend your rights (as you don't have to make a case at the ECHR) but to argue this you would be saying that you want MORE money wasted on lawyers and process.

I think so you don't have to

[the flying pig]

Si, are you missing my point: that we did not sign up to anything further than we were already covered by. It is entirely a myth!

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

I disagree mate we did sign up for more, in my opinion anyway. The way the act is formatted around rights that are then left open to interpretation by the legal profession has opened up many more cases than would have otherwise been possible and in addition because its via an EU act we have no right to make amendments to reduce the number of cases being bought under the act.

I will stick with not thinking thank you

you're obviously not daft S but once or twice i have wondered [maybe this is because the circles i move in are almost exclusively left-leaning borderline yoghurt-knitter types & i therefore rarely meet anyone who's even marginally right of centre] if you're the kind of bloke who, just every now and then, wakes up in the middle of the night shouting out a 'daily mail' headline.

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

[Mustafaster]

Si, are you missing my point: that we did not sign up to anything further than we were already covered by. It is entirely a myth!

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it think.

I disagree mate we did sign up for more, in my opinion anyway. The way the act is formatted around rights that are then left open to interpretation by the legal profession has opened up many more cases than would have otherwise been possible and in addition because its via an EU act we have no right to make amendments to reduce the number of cases being bought under the act.

I will stick with not thinking thank you

you're obviously not daft S but once or twice i have wondered [maybe this is because the circles i move in are almost exclusively left-leaning borderline yoghurt-knitter types & i therefore rarely meet anyone who's even marginally right of centre] if you're the kind of bloke who, just every now and then, wakes up in the middle of the night shouting out a 'daily mail' headline.

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

HAS THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT STOLEN FROM YOUR PENSION?

[the flying pig]

...you're obviously not daft S but once or twice i have wondered [maybe this is because the circles i move in are almost exclusively left-leaning borderline yoghurt-knitter types & i therefore rarely meet anyone who's even marginally right of centre] if you're the kind of bloke who, just every now and then, wakes up in the middle of the night shouting out a 'daily mail' headline.

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

HAS THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT STOLEN FROM YOUR PENSION?

it's happened time and again, mate egged on by a shadowy cabal of gypsies, ef & safety fanatics, & brussels bureucrats, no doubt

[Mustafaster]

...you're obviously not daft S but once or twice i have wondered [maybe this is because the circles i move in are almost exclusively left-leaning borderline yoghurt-knitter types & i therefore rarely meet anyone who's even marginally right of centre] if you're the kind of bloke who, just every now and then, wakes up in the middle of the night shouting out a 'daily mail' headline.

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

HAS THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACT STOLEN FROM YOUR PENSION?

it's happened time and again, mate egged on by a shadowy cabal of gypsies, ef & safety fanatics, & brussels bureucrats, no doubt

Ha ha ha, all you Human Rights Act are belong to us.

[SimonB]

I am extremely right wing that much is true and I am happy with my opinions so thank you all for your feedback and information which I will feel free to ignore.

Just one final note though on accepting the EU's own website as factual information - it did once publish a press release about how happy they were with the auditors report on their accounts when they were rejected for the 17th year in a row. They were happy as the accounts were slightly less inaccurate than in previous years. And in that press release they neglected to mention that the accounts had been rejected again.

Anyway I will remain very eurosceptic in terms of integration and the euro project, I do however really like the open market and that is something we should look to spread even further around the globe.

[SimonB]

you're obviously not daft S but once or twice i have wondered [maybe this is because the circles i move in are almost exclusively left-leaning borderline yoghurt-knitter types & i therefore rarely meet anyone who's even marginally right of centre] if you're the kind of bloke who, just every now and then, wakes up in the middle of the night shouting out a 'daily mail' headline.

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

I suppose most of the circles I move in are almost exclusively right-leaning Thatcher loving types but to be honest I never read the daily mail as I dont like it. I read the times most days though.

[gazurtoids]

Just one final note though on accepting the EU's own website as factual information - it did once publish a press release about how happy they were with the auditors report on their accounts when they were rejected for the 17th year in a row. They were happy as the accounts were slightly less inaccurate than in previous years. And in that press release they neglected to mention that the accounts had been rejected again.

Surely you can see the difference here?

Your example is a statement of opinion. They're happy that the accounts are getting more accurate, which is progress towards finally getting them approved. They're not lying and saying that the accounts have been signed off. It's spin, sure, but it's easy to see it for what it is.

The cases I linked you to are statements of fact about legislation. There isn't any way to "spin" this without lying. Do you dispute the explanation of the banana myth?

Euroscepticism is a perfectly valid position to hold but surely you can build a case for it without relying on hoary old nonsense like Daily Mail scare stories?

[SimonB]

The cases I linked you to are statements of fact about legislation. There isn't any way to "spin" this without lying. Do you dispute the explanation of the banana myth?

Euroscepticism is a perfectly valid position to hold but surely you can build a case for it without relying on hoary old nonsense like Daily Mail scare stories?

I never said I agreed with the banana myth, however I stick with what I did say was that they did (although my recollection was that they had tried to) define appropriate banana shapes and therefore I agree with your post.

Indeed my euro sceptism is more based on lack of accountability, corruption within the EU, lack of audited accounts, wanting decisions which impact this country to be made by this country via our democratic system and not in Daily Mail scare stories. Daily Mail scare stories can be entertaining though

In my mind the press release was more than just spin it was totally dishonest and to me adds another reason to be euro sceptic.

[Blackwhite]

So Si, do you accept that this "EU-enforced human rights laws" line is bullshit? Or are you ignoring this for fear of what it might do to your worldview?

Not to be argumentative, I'm just concerned that if you can't take an evidence-based view on this that you might be suffering terribly in other areas. There's no shame in being misled by the gutter press, but there is shame in being unable to spot the truth when it's pointed out to you with 50-foot-long flashing neon arrows.

[Mustafaster]

So Si, do you accept that this "EU-enforced human rights laws" line is bullshit? Or are you ignoring this for fear of what it might do to your worldview?

Not to be argumentative, I'm just concerned that if you can't take an evidence-based view on this that you might be suffering terribly in other areas. There's no shame in being misled by the gutter press, but there is shame in being unable to spot the truth when it's pointed out to you with 50-foot-long flashing neon arrows.

Very hard for most people to do that. It means admitting that more or less everything you've believed for the last 40 years or so has been bollox.
I was an orthodox Marxist up until the age of about 30, and it was really hard to let a lot of it go.
I'm fuckin dreading the day some cunt comes along and proves that Chomsky got it all wrong and that language is a learned response. Not expecting it to happen in my lifetime but ya never know.

[eric olthwaite]

Setting aside all this Euro truth / untruth stuff aside for a sec, I would just like to point out that Sarkozy is an obnoxious, uppity little cunt and it's high time someone fucking twatted him.

I'd have given the job to John Prescott if Labour were in power, but I guess it'll have to be Eric Pickles. He can just roll over him or summat.

[SimonB]

So Si, do you accept that this "EU-enforced human rights laws" line is bullshit? Or are you ignoring this for fear of what it might do to your worldview?

Not to be argumentative, I'm just concerned that if you can't take an evidence-based view on this that you might be suffering terribly in other areas. There's no shame in being misled by the gutter press, but there is shame in being unable to spot the truth when it's pointed out to you with 50-foot-long flashing neon arrows.

I am very happy with my worldview and I will remain Euro Sceptic.

I accept that it is the Council of Europe and not the EU that instigated the Human Rights Act of 1998 however I am still opposed to the way this legislation has been used and nothing in where the act originates from changes that opinion. The fact that this legislation comes from a different group of European countries rather than specifically from the EU makes no difference to me at all. So no worldview shattering moment

So now I not only believe we should leave the EU I believe we should leave the Council of Europe as well.

[gazurtoids]

Setting aside all this Euro truth / untruth stuff aside for a sec, I would just like to point out that Sarkozy is an obnoxious, uppity little cunt and it's high time someone fucking twatted him.

Yep, I get the impression he's an obnoxious little so-and-so as well.