EUROSCEPTICS

[burnleyinexile]

I would imaging that someone who has never worked could be safely assumed to be taking the piss. I wasn't saying that the JK circus is representative of Britain today, otherwise we wouldn't have lads and lasses from the same ethnic/social background and age laying down their lives in Afghan and other conflicts.
Obviously you don't feel there is a problem, and are more than happy to see dwindling resources being frittered away on people who have done nothing that the rest of us have to maintain those rights. Sorry mate, I'm not and never have been.

The jobs are there, end of. The fact that we have large numbers of East Europeans migrating here proves that. If the Poles, etc., weren't here, someone would surely still have to do those jobs? What is the harm in telling people who have been claiming for, for example, over two years "Go and do this job or else your benefits stop". Would that be so bad. The recent riots were undertaken by "disadvantaged, disenfranchised" people who don't feel part of society. Get them working, paying their way (don't forget there are now Tax Credits to top up shit wages)and make them feel included in society, give them a stake, and stop the cradle to grave benefit "as of right" culture, where their children also become benefit claimants when they are old enough.

Perhaps the benefit system should be overhauled whereby what you get out is based on what you have contributed? Don't know if it's doable, but surely worth considering?

I'm not complaining about my illness, shit happens, I'll get through it, it's just that those who have never paid in find it so bloody easy to take out. All I want is what I am entitled to, no more no less. End of.

[Dale White]

No disrespect mate but you are putting words in my mouth, i didn't say there wasn't a problem and obviously i dont like resourses being frittered away but i just doint like everybody being tarred wirth the same brush. It's the same old argument from right wingers that if you disagree with them you are unpatriotic and are happy for people to take the piss, in my case nothing could be further from the truth, i dont want this country to be run by the far right and the daily fucking heil, that does not make me a lefty. how about we get some of the tax avoiders to cough up, nah too difficult lets bash everybody at the bottom it's more popular with the right wing rags and middle England. There is a very nasty right wing agenda being stirred up in this country and normal decent people are being fooled into following it.

I repeat if all the eastern europeans left tomorrow it would not create 3 million jobs, i agree with your 2 years idea but even that could create it's own problems, i worked on one of these government schemes as a supervisor in the 80's and they were a farce, thats the problem there is no new thinking just rehashing ideas from the past, same thing with these so called enterprise zones, another idea from the 80's, they were fucking useless anorl.

Anyhow got to fuck off the enemy is putting the xmas tree up, how come blokes are fucking useless at this task

[burnleyinexile]

That's my task when her indoors goes to work (one of her three minimum wage jobs that keeps a roof over our heads with no benefits except a little bit of tax credit). She loves chrimbo to bits, but tree and trimmings are my dept. Can't complain, she finished the chrimbo shopping weeks ago, left to me it would still be on me list.

Totally agree about the tax dodgers, EVERY fucker should pay their way according to ability. Labour had their chances to close the loopholes that could have stopped that, but didn't. They concentrated on looking after the 'Wont work' brigade, a ready made source of Labour voters, same as the Tories won't close the tax loopholes and harm their main source of voters. I don't know what the answer is, but surely getting the indigenous population working has to be in the public interest? The money they earn will remain and be spent here, the east Europeans spend as little as possible here, sending most of it back home, including tax credits claimed here but drawn abroad.

As others have said, the jobs are there, they may well not be the most glamorous jobs on the planet, but someone has to do them. In fact being given a shite job may inspire them to want to better themselves and get a better job. It also is a source of pride to be earning a wage, knowing that the telly you are watching has been earned by you, not a gift from the state.

[Mustafaster]

I wish it were so simple as making the underclass get a job.
The jobs are there in the main, but who is going to want to employ the shiftless cunts? Somebody who has never done a stroke in their life and is used to getting up at 11:00 and goign straight down the pub is almost certainly unemployable form a businessman's point of view.
The reasons the E Europeans have no problem getting work is because they have a work ethic and employers are very happy to take them on, they know they will put a shift in.
The Anglo Saxon work ethic disappeared for the underclass some time in the 80's, maybe even earlier.
Fuck knows how you fix this.

[burnleyinexile]

I wish it were so simple as making the underclass get a job.
The jobs are there in the main, but who is going to want to employ the shiftless cunts? Somebody who has never done a stroke in their life and is used to getting up at 11:00 and goign straight down the pub is almost certainly unemployable form a businessman's point of view.
The reasons the E Europeans have no problem getting work is because they have a work ethic and employers are very happy to take them on, they know they will put a shift in.
The Anglo Saxon work ethic disappeared for the underclass some time in the 80's, maybe even earlier.
Fuck knows how you fix this.

Sad but true. A mate of mine, a good lad,aged 29, has been unemployed for 10 years...when he goes for a job and they see this, his name is straight in the bin. Perhaps the govt has to adopt a more hands on approach, like Community Payback but on a massive scale? Get the unemployed but qualified people (more short term unemployed usually) into supervisory roles and get them to supervise community schemes that councils can no longer afford to carry out.

[jackos]

Perhaps the benefit system should be overhauled whereby what you get out is based on what you have contributed? Don't know if it's doable, but surely worth considering?
of.

I'm not one for quoting dictators, but 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need' doesn't just mean taxing the hell out of the rich y know.

People have a responsibility to society, and society has a responsibility to the people who live it it. But Western Europe is in desperate need those immigrants if we want to maintain anything like the standard of living we have become used to. The building industry in Sweden would be fucked without the influx of British and Polish builders we've seen over the past few years, the Health Service would be at a stand still without the nurses, doctors, dentists etc who have moved here. The vast majority of them never cost the Swedish state a penny, especially the builders, they come here n work their balls off, leaving their families back home in Poland. I work in Ireland, Sweden and the UK there days, and with customers all over Europe and the world. I just don't see the reality you describe Burnley.

[burnleyinexile]

Perhaps the benefit system should be overhauled whereby what you get out is based on what you have contributed? Don't know if it's doable, but surely worth considering?
of.

I'm not one for quoting dictators, but 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need' doesn't just mean taxing the hell out of the rich y know.

People have a responsibility to society, and society has a responsibility to the people who live it it. But Western Europe is in desperate need those immigrants if we want to maintain anything like the standard of living we have become used to. The building industry in Sweden would be fucked without the influx of British and Polish builders we've seen over the past few years, the Health Service would be at a stand still without the nurses, doctors, dentists etc who have moved here. The vast majority of them never cost the Swedish state a penny, especially the builders, they come here n work their balls off, leaving their families back home in Poland. I work in Ireland, Sweden and the UK there days, and with customers all over Europe and the world. I just don't see the reality you describe Burnley.

I'm not in Parliament, but surely there has to be a better system than what we have now. I'm not disputing that immigration is not needed, of course it is. As you say the NHS would grind to a halt if not for foreign workers, but we are talking about Polish fruit pickers, meat packers, etc., all unskilled jobs. If our mass of unemployed haven't even the nouse to 'master' those posts, then it really is time to call it a day.
Another danger, as the UN have already pointed out to HMG, is that bringing in skilled workers (ie doctors from Pakistan or Africa) leaves those countries, whose need of those skills is far higher than ours, in dire need of those skills. They simply cannot afford to have their own trained people (trained at a cost to them, not us) doing that job there.

[jackos]

I'm not in Parliament, but surely there has to be a better system than what we have now. I'm not disputing that immigration is not needed, of course it is. As you say the NHS would grind to a halt if not for foreign workers, but we are talking about Polish fruit pickers, meat packers, etc., all unskilled jobs. If our mass of unemployed haven't even the nouse to 'master' those posts, then it really is time to call it a day.
Another danger, as the UN have already pointed out to HMG, is that bringing in skilled workers (ie doctors from Pakistan or Africa) leaves those countries, whose need of those skills is far higher than ours, in dire need of those skills. They simply cannot afford to have their own trained people (trained at a cost to them, not us) doing that job there.

Thank fuck for that hey? If cunts like me n you where in Parliament we really would be fucked We have the same jobs here, berry picking, mushroom picking the Swedish forests, mainly Thai's. But the only way you will get locals do do that kind of job is pay a decent wage. Employers abuse the law and pay a pittance to unskilled labourers. The answer isn't just to kick lazy fucks out of beds, it's to make the fucking employers pay people a wage they can live on. Why the fuck is your missus having to work 3 jobs or more? Why did my mum have to do the same thing 40 years ago while bringing up 5 kids? Things are no better 40 years on. A politician who's done 18 years in parliament is set for life, fuck here they are set for life after two terms (8-10 years), while your Missus is stuck doing 3 jobs? It's not the immigrants who are fucking you over.

[Quiffy]

excuse my ignorance on this, but....
now that cameron's left the euro table leaving it to make it's own decisions to suit their own agenda, what decisions can they make that are going to be so detrimental to the uk economy? surely if we remain in the free trade area then we'll be ok?

personally, i don't like cameron, but have always felt that by being more independent we'll be more flexible as an economy and able to react to global conditions better, which should surely be to our advantage. can we now become a bit like a big tax haven with our own rules to serve ourselves?

[Supernorm]

I can't think of any good that we've got out of the EU, sure there have been some projects, a road here or there, a national trust building saved from crumbling, but tell me something that has made us all richer as a population.

Our EU bill will hit 100 billion a year very soon, and they still can't sign off the EU accounts every year. At least when our own Hooray Henry's were caught with their hand in the till, public condemnation and the media brought the thieving cunts back into line. Who do you complain to when greedy French farmers borrow each others herds of cattle in the middle of the night, to boost their own numbers, or when Spanish mega trawlers rile the Argentinian authorities by fishing outside of the Falkland Islands territory, all under the EU flag, especially at a time when they are sabre rattling again, about (their) Malvinas. If a new task force was required, HMS Belfast would need to get de-barnacled before it could be towed by tug-boat to Stanley harbour as a deterrent.

Some Europhile British politicians are calling it the end of he world, they are probably seeking the bumper pay-days that they could get if they toe the line, but I hope the sceptics keep Cameron from going back on his word. He would have caved in on Friday, like Blair and Brown before him, it was the thought of him coming back and trying to spin, that handing over London's international banking industry, was good for Britain, he knew his career would have been over for showing so much weakness to that jumped up little pip-squeak Sarkozy. Let this run it's course. The Euro is failing, the new agreement reached by the others, will not be enough to save it, more extremely harsh cuts are required. The peoples of Europe will have had enough of this Political Utopian Dream someday soon.

Apparently the UK population doesn't stand alone wanting a referendum, the majority of people, in the majority of EU countries want out or a re-negotiation as well.

[jackos]

Apparently the UK population doesn't stand alone wanting a referendum, the majority of people, in the majority of EU countries want out or a re-negotiation as well.

Out? Depends on what you mean, I doubt you will find a majority in any European country (other than possibly England) for leaving the EU completely, leaving the common currency probably, but not the EU. Even the left/Greens up here have dropped it from their manifesto, they obviously want to change the EU, are against federalism, single foreign policy etc, but realise leaving now isn't a option.

UK politicians have just found the perfect way of turning people attention from the fucked up state of the UK economy, for or against, it's better than talking about the fuck-up they have made. Why is The City generating 1 in every 10 quid in the UK BNP? Because Thatcher and all who came after didn't give a fuck about British industry, or jobs for regular folks. Weird how the banks have gone from pariahs who sank the UK economy, to it's saviours, in less than 24 months. MG's 'mates' really have been busy...

[burnleyinexile]

The johnny foreigners are very blasé about us, seems they don't give a toss if we don't want to be in their club. Be interesting to see who would, if we pulled out totally, cough up the £50-70m per day that we tip up as admission fees. That sort of coin would go a long way to sorting out our deficit, but it would knock a decent hole in their bank balance.

As for trade, if we still actually have goods/services they need/want, surely they'll still have to buy them from us? Brits who work in Europe would surely still be in jobs, simply because they are there because of ability, not because of anything our govt does?

[jackos]

The johnny foreigners are very blasé about us, seems they don't give a toss if we don't want to be in their club. Be interesting to see who would, if we pulled out totally, cough up the £50-70m per day that we tip up as admission fees. That sort of coin would go a long way to sorting out our deficit, but it would knock a decent hole in their bank balance.

As for trade, if we still actually have goods/services they need/want, surely they'll still have to buy them from us? Brits who work in Europe would surely still be in jobs, simply because they are there because of ability, not because of anything our govt does?

Looking at THESE figures the UK "only" contributes about 5% of the EU budget. though it is the second largest net contributor (I'm assuming that takes account of the UK refund Thatcher negotiated). In terms of per capita contributions the UK is the 6th largest contributor. Obviously a shortfall of 5% would be felt, 50 billion quid is a fuck of a lot of money. I've no idea what EU membership is worth to the UK. To Sweden membership is vital and worth every penny, the Swedish economy is totally dependent on exports, and a large percent of those exports go to Europe.

Regards job, I have been there as I said, I had to apply for a work permit in Sweden when I moved here, and it was by no means a done thing. I have mates who where turned down. Right now UK citizens have a right to work anywhere in Europe, they have the same right as anyone else in Europe to apply for jobs in Sweden. Today Brits are judged on merit as you say, and currently 20000 Brits live and work in Sweden, (sure a lot of them are here by marriage), but if the UK leave Europe that will change over night. Sweden has already made it more difficult for Europeans to move here, people moving here have to prove they have a job before they are granted a work permit, a few years ago is was sufficient to have an address. A lot of people coming to Sweden are moving because it offers a better standard of living, cheaper housing, vast areas of untouched nature etc. They move from ex. the North of the UK to the North of Sweden to work in industry, building etc .. It works great for both countries as Swedes are moving South to the cities, leaving The North with an ageing population and without people to work in ex. Industry, care etc. Its not easy moving up there, you have to learn the lingo, and the change is lifestyle is dramatic (even for a Scot the North of Sweden is a fuck of a long way from everything, cold and dark ), but a lot of people feel it is worth it. That opportunity will disappear straight away if the UK leaves Europe. There's thousands of other Europeans willing to to those jobs, (ex. Poles and Irish who do a lot of seasonal work here), Brits get the jobs because we integrate easily, are hard working and they speak our language.

[Quiffy]

Looking at THESE figures the UK "only" contributes about 5% of the EU budget. though it is the second largest net contributor (I'm assuming that takes account of the UK refund Thatcher negotiated). In terms of per capita contributions the UK is the 6th largest contributor. Obviously a shortfall of 5% would be felt, 50 billion quid is a fuck of a lot of money. I've no idea what EU membership is worth to the UK. To Sweden membership is vital and worth every penny, the Swedish economy is totally dependent on exports, and a large percent of those exports go to Europe.

Regards job, I have been there as I said, I had to apply for a work permit in Sweden when I moved here, and it was by no means a done thing. I have mates who where turned down. Right now UK citizens have a right to work anywhere in Europe, they have the same right as anyone else in Europe to apply for jobs in Sweden. Today Brits are judged on merit as you say, and currently 20000 Brits live and work in Sweden, ...

i read yesterday that the difference between what britain contributes and receives is 0.12% of GDP. [it was in the gruniad, but i can no longer find it]. how that squares up in absolute levels i don't know, but i suppose it's the price for being at the head table in terms of decision making.

as for stopping brits go abroad to work, that's surely a good thing as far as the people of britain are concerned, as they're the potentially useful members of society that'll be staying. the swedes don't need them as much as us.

...and burnley, as someone who's ex military, how would you feel about taking a job supervising the feckless as they worked for their benefits?

[SimonB]

The European Court of Auditors has now failed to pass the accounts of the EU for 17 years in a row.

“The Court concludes that overall the supervisory and control systems are partially effective in ensuring the legality and regularity of payments underlying the accounts. The policy groups Agriculture and Natural Resources and Cohesion, Energy and Transport are materially affected by error. The Court’s estimate for the most likely error rate for payments underlying the accounts is 3.7 %.

“In the Court’s opinion, because of the significance of the matters described [above] on the legality and regularity of payments underlying the accounts paragraph, the payments underlying the accounts for the year ended 31 December 2010 are materially affected by error.”

I wonder how many other organisations can fail to have their accounts passed for 17 years still exist?

Although the accounts were failing to be passed the EU sent out a press release relating to the 2009 accounts stating how happy they were that they had received a clean bill of health on their accounts for the third year in a row. Although they do mention -

The accounts were found to be 'true and fair', meaning a clean bill of health. As for payments, the Commission managed for the first time to bring down the overall error rate for EU spending below 5%. This means at least 95% of total payments made in 2009 were correct.

So out of a total budget of €122 billion payments of only around €6 billion were made in error and of course that is only the errors actually discovered. Bear in mind that most fraudulent items will all have the "proper" paperwork.

Personally I feel the whole thing is a monumental waste of money and it would have been much better to concentrate on the aim of a single market throughout Europe and then leaving individual countries to deal with everything else.

The Euro was never going to work without a much more integrated fiscal policy and the recognition that the richer states will always have to help support the poorer states. Even the current treaty doesn't suggest that this is going to be accepted anytime soon and will leave those poor states with no option, in my opinion, but to leave the Euro and de-value their new currency. Germany is happy to accept the benefit of a relatively low value currency (which is kept at a lower level due to the poorer states) to its economy but doesn't seem that happy now it is being asked to pay for that benefit.

I believe Cameron was right to use the veto and he will have to continue to ensure that measures needed to protect the Euro (well maybe not protect, slightly prolong the life of the Euro) have as small an impact on the UK economy as possible. I actually hope that the Euro survives, much as I have always disagreed with it, as I don't want to see the impact that its failure will have on our economy.

From the UK perspective I think we should withdraw from the EU and join the EFTA instead, thus ensuring the repatriation of the powers of the EU and the European Court and allowing us to remove the Human Rights Act and the Working Time Directive, along with many others, from our statute books. Concentrate on getting our economy to be more competitive and re-building lost relationships with our commonwealth partners whilst continuing to trade with the remaining EU countries.

[Blackwhite]

I get really annoyed at the common shout that the Human Rights Act needs repealing. Si, which bits of it specifically do you think need repealing: all of it? Some of it? Or just the bits that allow some work-shy Afghan to stay past his visa cos he's got a cat (i.e. the bullshit scare stories the RW press like to trot out to embarrass Theresa "Fuck-me-shoes" May)?

Genuine question.

[SimonB]

I get really annoyed at the common shout that the Human Rights Act needs repealing. Si, which bits of it specifically do you think need repealing: all of it? Some of it? Or just the bits that allow some work-shy Afghan to stay past his visa cos he's got a cat (i.e. the bullshit scare stories the RW press like to trot out to embarrass Theresa "Fuck-me-shoes" May)?

Genuine question.

Personally I think all of it should be repealed, in my opinion we already had enough rights protections under existing legislation and under common law. The cat example did actually exist IIRC although not in the way that Theresa presented it perhaps we should just deport the cat women from Coventry instead.

As far as I know the Human Rights Act has been used / referred as reasoning in cases (not always succesfully I will admit) to -

Try to stop terrorists being deported (Afghan plane at Stansted as one example)
Try to stop illegal immigrants being deported
To allow prisoners to take drugs in jail
To release convicted rapists on probation
To challenge the governments cut back in education costs
To challenge the tuition fees
To challenge local authorities cut back in libraries
To halt the deportation of a murderer as he had a right to family life in the UK

According to research by the conservative party by 2008 (a decade from the act being implemented) there were 1,200 lawyers who specialised in Human Rights act cases and obviously the cost to the country in defending these cases is huge. I know that in many cases people challenged under the act give in rather than fight a costly legal battle that even if they win would cost them thousands in legal fees.

For myself I dont feel any more protected since the act was put in place in 1998 so what benefits has the act bought to the country?

[eric olthwaite]

Working Time Directive

This Daily Heil whinge really fucks me off. In order to breach the EU Working Time Directive an employee has to work more than 48 hours per week for more than 17 weeks consecutively.

No-one, on the entire fucking planet, should be required by an employer to work more than 48 hours for more than 17 weeks consecutively. That's four fucking months. Nor is there any benefit to an employer in getting an employee to work those hours without even one bloody day off. They'd be fucked and underperforming.

My last employer asked me to sign the waiver in my contract and I struck it out and told them to do one. It's not inconceivable that I might, one day, have to work those hours. But if I do, it'll be at my discretion, not any employer's.

[SimonB]

Working Time Directive

This Daily Heil whinge really fucks me off. In order to breach the EU Working Time Directive an employee has to work more than 48 hours per week for more than 17 weeks consecutively.

No-one, on the entire fucking planet, should be required by an employer to work more than 48 hours for more than 17 weeks consecutively. That's four fucking months. Nor is there any benefit to an employer in getting an employee to work those hours without even one bloody day off. They'd be fucked and underperforming.

My last employer asked me to sign the waiver in my contract and I struck it out and told them to do one. It's not inconceivable that I might, one day, have to work those hours. But if I do, it'll be at my discretion, not any employer's.

To me it depends on the companies requirements and obviously you need to take the ability of your employees to work effectively into account as you say. Personally I almost always work more than 48 hours a week but then to all intents and purposes I work for myself so its to my benefit to do so. Even if you dont work for your self there are many people who would like to work more hours (more money, bills to pay etc.) that are not permitted to.

Surprised about the waiver though Eric I didnt think they were legal?

One alternative take on the reduction in junior doctors working time is that surgeons are now qualifying having done significantly less training than those before them, so always ask to be treated by an older medic!!

[Mustafaster]

I've changed my mind on this.
The UK should hold a referndum and vote to secede. I'm getting heartily sick of the moaning and whining that the EU won't let you do what you want, it's getting embarrasing now. The UK is like a teengaer whose parents insist on him doing a few chores round the house and moans like fuck all the time that "it's not fair".
A majority want out, so leave.