Leeds United accounts

[Krumpli]

a big ask i know but i'd ideally have liked to see, for example, some proper analysis of the contribution that the hotels owned by clubs like bolton have made to their bottom lines and/or some finger-in-the-air analysis on what sort of return we might expect on our new boxes etc.

Swiss Ramble again, on why Bolton have so much debt.

The segmental analysis in the accounts reveals that the hotel produces annual revenue of around £8 million, but does not contribute anything to the bottom line, as it has reported losses for the last six years. In 2010, the loss was just under £2 million with trading conditions being described as “extremely testing”.

[Jailhouse John]

It really is an excellent read. Written in a language that is understandable to even the most financially unaware supporter. Given that each statement is then backed up by comparitive figures it should be used as a basis for all future discussions wrt our clubs finances.

Withr regard to the lack of substance regarding Yorkshire Radio etc. I think he did what he could - there is bugger all out there about how these costs are accrued.

[Phil LUFC]

There are a few minor eorrors in the article, nothing too serious but maybe things the average Leeds fan should be able to instantly spot and I guess may lead them to question the accuracy elsewhere?

eg. A statement that Warnock arrived the day after the window closed.

There's also no mention of how/when Bates aquired the other 50% from Krasner and co.

[Vausey]

In regards to Yorkshire Radio - how it does not make any money is an absolute mystery. I was talking to someone who works for the club (don't want to get them in trouble) a few weeks ago and they said they'd been talking to some bloke who runs a radio station recently (cannot remember the details - apologies). Anyway, it was concluded that the amount of listeners the station gets is conducive to making a healthy profit.

[Blackwhite]

In regards to Yorkshire Radio - how it does not make any money is an absolute mystery. I was talking to someone who works for the club (don't want to get them in trouble) a few weeks ago and they said they'd been talking to some bloke who runs a radio station recently (cannot remember the details - apologies). Anyway, it was concluded that the amount of listeners the station gets is conducive to making a healthy profit.

It's called Hollywood accounting.

[thechubbyone]

In regards to Yorkshire Radio - how it does not make any money is an absolute mystery. I was talking to someone who works for the club (don't want to get them in trouble) a few weeks ago and they said they'd been talking to some bloke who runs a radio station recently (cannot remember the details - apologies). Anyway, it was concluded that the amount of listeners the station gets is conducive to making a healthy profit.

It's a particular mystery when it doesn't have any staff on the payroll.

I work in advertising and can access a thing called ad dynamix. They're a company that monitors all advertising and attaches estimated costs. For example, if you look up X company you can see that they spent (according to ad dynamix estimates) £X in the Telegraph, £X on ITV and £X on Radio Aire. It covers the majority of local radio stations and the vast majority of the poxy sky channels, yet Yorkshire Radio isn't on there. This suggests to me that their revenue isn't enough to warrant reporting.

[Phil LUFC]

AT the very least, I'd expect YR to be "paying" LUFC a certain amount for broadcast rights, not enough is made of LUFC subsidising YR to the tune of £2m a year. Never mind the staff costs on top of that.

What is the going rate per season for radio broadcast rights of a championship club? £250k? While I'm on the subject, we do Minster FM pay, YR or LUFC?

[Mr Reality]

glad the swiss ramble has put together a piece on leeds, i was one of thoose requesting when the accounts came out

[Quiffy]

i had a quick look at the article and surmised that the £600k shortfall in profiability bewtween leeds city holdings and LUFC was possibly due to YR's financial success.

i know someone will tell me i'm wrong.

[Disco Dan]

AT the very least, I'd expect YR to be "paying" LUFC a certain amount for broadcast rights, not enough is made of LUFC subsidising YR to the tune of £2m a year. Never mind the staff costs on top of that.

What is the going rate per season for radio broadcast rights of a championship club? £250k? While I'm on the subject, we do Minster FM pay, YR or LUFC?

You're looking at about £80,000-120,000 per season.

As far as I know, Minster don't pay a penny. They are used to bump up listening figures and therefore ad revenues.

[gazurtoids]

But surely those are MFM's listening figures and not YR's? Unless ads are sold by programme, are they?

[Disco Dan]

But surely those are MFM's listening figures and not YR's? Unless ads are sold by programme, are they?

Ads are still sold through good old fashioned negotiation. Minster allows YR to say: "Look how many people are going to hear your message" It's purely a matter of numbers.

When I was at Radio Aire they tried to negotiate with the club to take over the deal from Minster, arguing that they would be able to give it better coverage for the city of Leeds - the prime Leeds United audience - but were told to fuck off out of spite.

[the flying pig]

But surely those are MFM's listening figures and not YR's? Unless ads are sold by programme, are they?

Ads are still sold through good old fashioned negotiation. Minster allows YR to say: "Look how many people are going to hear your message" It's purely a matter of numbers.

When I was at Radio Aire they tried to negotiate with the club to take over the deal from Minster, arguing that they would be able to give it better coverage for the city of Leeds - the prime Leeds United audience - but were told to fuck off out of spite.

to be fair i find that spite is criminally underused in many big business circles. it might not bring in the big bucks but it certainly warms the cockles.

[Vausey]

I mentioned this on WACCOE this afternoon but, if you take the Swiss Ramble article at face value, then I don't think it portrays Bates in a particularly terrible light.

Admittedly the shafting of HMRC and local businesses highlights some ethical issues but from the point of view of LUFC it was a sound business move (cringe).

It also dispels the argument that "we're in exactly the same place as we were when he took over". Yes we're in the same league position but we are no longer in financial meltdown and so that represents an improvement although we, the fans, have largely had to pick up the bill to fund this improvement it still goes down as another successful business move.

I'm not a Bates fan but this whole black and white way of looking at it is infuriating. Yes he's a lying, conniving scum-bag who sold our best players and demonstrated a huge lack of ambition on the football field... but I think the key point in this article is that we are a club who is able to generate a profit without player sales (despite paying rent on a stadium - an unusual outgoing for a football club) and that is solely down to Bates. If Warnock can cobble together a team that makes a play-off push on limited funds then crowds will return again this season and it's likely we'll make a profit again before player sales.

Obviously, as a football club, we'd like to see and even expect this profit to be used on the team and that has always been the major sticking point. However, as far as that article goes I don't think Bates comes out of it looking too badly.

[Disco Dan]

I kind of agree, Vausey. What angers me is that Bates is so close to getting it right - it's infuriating. In many respects he's a million miles away too. It's his ridiculous inflexibility and intransigence that weighs so heavily against him. The club is in good shape but is still being unnecessarily held back through misappropriation of funds and poor business practices.

As yer Ramble man says, it wouldn't take much to make us genuinely competitive. We generate the funds to make a sustainable push, so let's just hope they are concentrated in the right areas for once. That's why so much stock has been placed in Warnock IMHO. I dread to think how shite it's going to be at ER next season if it doesn't work out.

[Vausey]

Exactly.

He's been saying all along that he wants to establish means in which we can generate money to spend on the team... the problem now is that we ARE generating profit and it's being pumped straight back into the system rather than on the squad. It begs the question at what point will he consider us profitable enough to provide the manager at the time with a healthy budget with which he can spend on improving us on the field.

I happen to think Bates has got a lot of things right in his time at the club. Like you alluded to... I think there's a fine line between him being the most hated chairman of all time and the most loved if he would just ease up on some of his stringent principles.

[Mustafaster]

Whoah there trigger! Just a cotton pickin minute there, Musky.
The club is profitable is it?
So why are we mortgaging future revenues?

[Vausey]

As I said at the start of my post: I'm more analysing/using the blog that analyses the accounts rather than analysing the accounts directly. I'm just going off what the Swiss bloke said!

[moscowhite]

He's been saying all along that he wants to establish means in which we can generate money to spend on the team... the problem now is that we ARE generating profit and it's being pumped straight back into the system rather than on the squad. It begs the question at what point will he consider us profitable enough to provide the manager at the time with a healthy budget with which he can spend on improving us on the field.

...but the profitabilty referred to in the Swiss Ramble article has been generated without any of the projects Bates has concentrated on building to the detriment of the team. Neither the Pavilion, the East Stand corporate facilities, the radio station or the possible casino have contributed a penny to our bottom line yet.

And yet, without the things Bates has been building, we are one of the few profitable teams in the division, with a turnover other clubs can only fear and admire.

In fact, if profitability was the aim, it would have been have been achieved much sooner without all the outgoing costs related to the design, planning and construction of the Pavilion, the East Stand, the casino etc etc.

[Disco Dan]

Exactly.

He's been saying all along that he wants to establish means in which we can generate money to spend on the team... the problem now is that we ARE generating profit and it's being pumped straight back into the system rather than on the squad. It begs the question at what point will he consider us profitable enough to provide the manager at the time with a healthy budget with which he can spend on improving us on the field.

I happen to think Bates has got a lot of things right in his time at the club. Like you alluded to... I think there's a fine line between him being the most hated chairman of all time and the most loved if he would just ease up on some of his stringent principles.

Nah, I think he'll always be viewed as a fucking bellend. Even if we go back up I'd say it's a case that we had to tolerate him.

Bates' problem is that the money is always being pumped back into the system. If it's not cream cladding it's a fucking casino, or a hotel, or a conference centre. There's always something. But that's what property developers do. If he drew a line under all that shit and said, "Yeah, phase one of our building works is done now, but the next priority is Premier League football, which will allow us to develop the rest of the club in every respect," then people might buy into it. But he doesn't, because he has a blinkered one-policy definition of progress. The 15% drop in crowds should stand as a stark warning of how close to failure his business plan actually is.

The cash position of the club isn't good because he's fucking spending it all. Cashflow is normally what fucks a business, not necessarily any debt. He's had his warning this year. Let's hope he's privately heeded it, even if the exterior remains unchanging.