Leeds United accounts

[jackos]

No matter how he's done it, whether it be dodgy dealings or whatever, he's steadied the ship at the very least (admittedly with our money!).

How do you know that? Because the clubs accounts say so? We don't know who own's ER or TA, we don't know where a lot of the money is going, or what other debts Bates might land our club with the day he leaves or dies. This is a man who invented a massive loan in order to win the club back after bankruptcy, he is the man who threatened to liquidate the club when he looked like loosing the club during the same bankruptcy. I don't think we will know if the ship is even seaworthy until Bates leaves.

[jackos]

Too stubborn and proud to see his own failings and determined to be proved right.

The clubs legal bills prove that to be true.

[gazurtoids]

yes but how many conferences will the pavillion hold a year, i agree the pavillion is good addition, not sure why its a seperate business etc but the basic idea of the pavillion i agree with, not very expensive to constrcution costs(i am a civil/structural engineer)

and if you have the pavillion why do you need the hotel, i dont see the reasoning for this

For multi-day conferences. I have no idea if the market for this is big enough for it to be a good idea, I'm just pointing out that skype isn't a problem for this part of the "business".

I believe exec boxes are let individually for smaller meetings etc.

Are they? You're right, that might well suffer then.

[jackos]

Admin was largely brought about by a mysterious £17m debt that appeared a couple of months beforehand, owed to a company who would then only allow LUFC to avoid liquidation if the man they had loaned that money to and who had subsequently lost it all (on what?) kept control.

Admin wasn't fucking good for the club. Never owing £17m to Astor would have been good for the club.

We can be fairly certain being own by Simon Morris wouldn't have been all that Dandy either though, nor was being owned by Krasners mob, fuck knows what being owned by RedBus would have been like - it's perhaps sufficient to know they where willing to get into bed with Morris to win the club. Don't supposed we'll ever know if Bates scared away any real investors - we only got him because no-one else was will to take on the debt after Krasner sold TA n ER, n Bates was like a alcoholic desperate to find his next drink after Wednesday fucked him off ..

Suppose it's all really CMAC's fault? If he hadn't flirted with Sainsbury, Sainsbury would never have called Bates for for investment n he might never have seen the opportunity ...

[Mr Reality]

yes but how many conferences will the pavillion hold a year, i agree the pavillion is good addition, not sure why its a seperate business etc but the basic idea of the pavillion i agree with, not very expensive to constrcution costs(i am a civil/structural engineer)

and if you have the pavillion why do you need the hotel, i dont see the reasoning for this

For multi-day conferences. I have no idea if the market for this is big enough for it to be a good idea, I'm just pointing out that skype isn't a problem for this part of the "business".

But web conferencing is popular too at the moment in the construction industry there is a change happening from British standards to eurocodes, I am currently doing free monthly courses over the web where upwards of 200 people log in, the steel construction industry cant even run these courses regularly in person as companies won't pay for it, I am not saying every industry is the same but i don't think it's wide of the mark to suggest web meetings and conferences are used now in business , which in a round about way comes back to the point of how up to date is the business model the club are trying to implement

[jackos]

This is an interesting point. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that Bates is not a well man. I wonder if it's his liver that's packing up? I mean, he cuts a mean Henry VIII figure, with his beard and belly and his proclivity for the finer things in life - Pouilly Fume, beef wellington, etc.

He's 80 for fucks sake Age does that to you. F'in amazing that his rotten black heart's lasted so long, but he's not the first person to prove that life really ain't fair. ..

[Disco Dan]

We can be fairly certain being own by Simon Morris wouldn't have been all that Dandy either though, nor was being owned by Krasners mob, fuck knows what being owned by RedBus would have been like - it's perhaps sufficient to know they where willing to get into bed with Morris to win the club.

For what it's worth, I know somebody who has spoken to Simon Franks of Redbus and he said that they know the Morris tie-in was never going to win. Redbus knew the whole process was loaded from the start. The Morris thing was a final throw of the dice.

What I liked about Redbus was the fact that their MO was outlined from the start. Improve the business, invest in the core areas to get us back up and then onto the Premier League, and then sell for profit. It's the same model their entire business is built on. I'd say we'd be in a much rosier position had they won control. The Morris thing was a faux pas, but that shouldn't mask what their initial intention was.

[Phil LUFC]

No matter how he's done it, whether it be dodgy dealings or whatever, he's steadied the ship at the very least (admittedly with our money!).

How do you know that? Because the clubs accounts say so? We don't know who own's ER or TA, we don't know where a lot of the money is going, or what other debts Bates might land our club with the day he leaves or dies. This is a man who invented a massive loan in order to win the club back after bankruptcy, he is the man who threatened to liquidate the club when he looked like loosing the club during the same bankruptcy. I don't think we will know if the ship is even seaworthy until Bates leaves.

The accounts aren't complete lies though, Vausey is right in saying that the club is now in better financial state than it was 7 years ago. That's not saying Bates has done a good job, he's just not been a complete failure. There's plenty to have a go at without being blind to the few small positives. It may have been an incidental aside effect rather than the plan though.

[jackos]

The accounts aren't complete lies though, Vausey is right in saying that the club is now in better financial state than it was 7 years ago. That's not saying Bates has done a good job, he's just not been a complete failure. There's plenty to have a go at without being blind to the few small positives. It may have been an incidental aside effect rather than the plan though.

It doesn't really matter where Bates is involved though does it? He'll dilute the share capital in order to do a business partner out of a few quid, he'll manipulate the fans n press just for fun, we have no idea who he is involved with, who owns TA/ER, who the clubs creditors are. He could invent a 100M loan tomorrow if it suited his games, n the sell us for anothef 50m with all the debt being passed on to the club,

None of those games would bother a lot of people if he hadn't failed so completely in the footballing side of the business. But he has. We are talking about a steady ship, but this is a football club. We have half a team, lower gates, n no optimism, fixing that isn't going to be cheap.

[Phil LUFC]

Those are all valid complaints, some may be addressed this summer, I doubt it, but we'll see. He could fuck us over whenever he sees fit, but for the time being, we're steady, but on the verge out a mutiny.

[Vausey]

I'm not saying Ken Bates has been good for the club. If you note my original post I just said that he has done some good things which everyone is desperate to ignore so that they can go on slagging him off.

Look, I hate the bloke. The first season I bought a season ticket was 2007 so I've effectively paid £2,500ish to see one relegation, dennis wise, 3 seasons in league one, the sale of our best players and the absolute horse-shit we had to watch this season just gone... all of which, probably aside from the relegation, could have been avoided if Ken Bates had actually treated us as a football club rather than a podium for himself. I'm just as infuriated as all of you but I'm just trying to be reasonable about things.

Another thing is... none of us actually have a clue what is going on at LUFC. Bates has the whole set-up shrouded in mystery... I'll be surprised if we ever find out what's been going on these past 7 years.

[Vausey]

Also, I HATE the fact that he is putting off potential investors. I have told Dan this before but the club has been independently valued at £50M despite the only assets being the players (this was over 18 months ago, mind) and yet KB's asking price is around £80M-£90M!

I wonder what his plans are for us when he dies? He must have something in place!

[moscowhite]

I'm not saying Ken Bates has been good for the club. If you note my original post I just said that he has done some good things which everyone is desperate to ignore so that they can go on slagging him off.

Let's review the good things you've come up with so far.

1. Putting us into administration.
2. Building a pavilion and some corporate boxes.

Forgive me if my gratitude gland isn't exactly pumping.

[AndyPaul]

Forgive me if my gratitude gland isn't exactly pumping.

It happens to us all at some point, don't worry they reckon its usually more psychological than physical when this happens so talking through your problems will have that gland pumping away once again.

Otherwise there's always Viagra

[Vausey]

I'm not saying Ken Bates has been good for the club. If you note my original post I just said that he has done some good things which everyone is desperate to ignore so that they can go on slagging him off.

Let's review the good things you've come up with so far.

1. Putting us into administration.
2. Building a pavilion and some corporate boxes.

Forgive me if my gratitude gland isn't exactly pumping.

That's all very well you passing off 2 huge events in as little as 11 words to make them seem insignificant but we both know that's not the case!

Aside from having a billionaire owner who would be able to clear all our debts, do you think that administration was avoidable? As Phil mentioned earlier; we are in a better financial position than we were 7 years ago and there's few that could argue with that.

Building the corporate side of things may yet come to fruition for LUFC - it's pointless debating whether they will end up bringing in any money because we don't know what the future holds but you can't deny that the potential is there.

[moscowhite]

do you think that administration was avoidable?

Yes.

Presenting admin as a good thing that "steadied the ship" is nuts. It's like the IRA bombing of Manchester: it cleared the way for a huge regeneration project that has been great for the city, but that doesn't make the IRA great urban developers.

[BC]

do you think that administration was avoidable?

Yes.

Presenting admin as a good thing that "steadied the ship" is nuts. It's like the IRA bombing of Manchester: it cleared the way for a huge regeneration project that has been great for the city, but that doesn't make the IRA great urban developers.

The IRA are better urban developers than Bates is a football chairman.

[Fax Man]

People seem to forget how little the debt was (comparatively speaking) when Bates took over. This piece by Mihir Bose, which quotes Bates directly, explains it well...

http://www.mihirbose.com/index.php/how- ... -at-leeds/

Bates quickly worked out the Leeds debt was not as bad as reported. “They had £17 million of debt, £4.5 million were loans by directors and I said I wasn’t paying that back. I said to leave it for 10 years and we did a deal for four years.”

That brought the debt down to £12.5 milion. Of that, £4.8 million was owed to the Inland Revenue and VAT combined. The Leeds board had got the taxman to accept that £3.5 million of this would be paid back over 2½ years but £1.2 million of this had been due since December and the Inland Revenue could call it in in seven days. If Leeds did not pay they could put the club into receivership.

This left around £8 million owed mainly to former players and managers such as David O’Leary and Peter Reid. Bates concluded that this was “very reasonable”. Within hours of his takeover he was seeking deals on this debt and told me: “We are negotiating with players and their agents for rebates. They all have the interest of Leeds at heart.”

Bates offered the existing directors £80,000 for their shares, although for complicated financial reasons they sold only 50 per cent of them for £40,000. Not that they were bought by Bates in his own name. Instead they are now owned by the Geneva-based Forward Sports Foundation.

It was when I asked Bates about his connection with the fund that he got more coy. “It is a fund which I advise,” he said before adding with a smile, “says he with dilated nostrils.”

I persisted: “Technically you are not an owner of Leeds, merely an adviser?” Bates replied: ” Well let’s not get into that. We shall leave it for that is clearly machiavellian.” And with that he burst into loud laughter.

The Foundation have paid Leeds a total of £4.9 million either for the shares or in loans and although Bates has been in control for barely a week he is already wheeling and dealing.

Personally, I reckon admin was definitely avoidable. I also can't help thinking that Bates' hatred for the taxman and the former directors lead to him sticking us into admin to just so he didn't have to give either of them a penny (or at least the bare minimum). Admin screwed us over, especially the 15 points which meant three seasons in League One instead of just one. Bates may have won against the taxman/directors but it cost us dear. Cutting off the nose to spite the face... or bombing a city centre to spark urban regeneration as Moscow put it!

[Vausey]

do you think that administration was avoidable?

Yes.

Presenting admin as a good thing that "steadied the ship" is nuts. It's like the IRA bombing of Manchester: it cleared the way for a huge regeneration project that has been great for the city, but that doesn't make the IRA great urban developers.

If we hadn't gone into administration then where would we have been, I wonder? I'm not saying that as argument I just genuinely wonder where we'd be right now.

Are you saying that administration was of no benefit to us? Did it not relieve us of having to pay nearly £8M to HMRC? Admittedly, I don't know the ins and outs of it as well as you do but, from what I can gather, it certainly relieved the financial burden somewhat.

[Mr Reality]

I'm not saying Ken Bates has been good for the club. If you note my original post I just said that he has done some good things which everyone is desperate to ignore so that they can go on slagging him off.

Let's review the good things you've come up with so far.

1. Putting us into administration.
2. Building a pavilion and some corporate boxes.

Forgive me if my gratitude gland isn't exactly pumping.

That's all very well you passing off 2 huge events in as little as 11 words to make them seem insignificant but we both know that's not the case!

Aside from having a billionaire owner who would be able to clear all our debts, do you think that administration was avoidable? As Phil mentioned earlier; we are in a better financial position than we were 7 years ago and there's few that could argue with that.

Building the corporate side of things may yet come to fruition for LUFC - it's pointless debating whether they will end up bringing in any money because we don't know what the future holds but you can't deny that the potential is there.

potential is a very loose word in business speak, they corporate boxes may have "potential" but is the potential achievable without adequately funding the football side of the business, as i mentioned earlier the idea of the boxes as meeting rooms through the week has major flaws in the argument