EUROSCEPTICS

[burnleyinexile]

...and burnley, as someone who's ex military, how would you feel about taking a job supervising the feckless as they worked for their benefits?

Would love it mate. Done a bit in the past. PO would drop off scroat, scroat would be allocated task, PO would vanish (heavy workload or summat), scroat wouldn't be far behind. Just needs some discipline in the system, same as they're pushing ex-military into schools now, but society has be prepared to allow that discipline to be used.

[Quiffy]

...and burnley, as someone who's ex military, how would you feel about taking a job supervising the feckless as they worked for their benefits?

Would love it mate. Done a bit in the past. PO would drop off scroat, scroat would be allocated task, PO would vanish (heavy workload or summat), scroat wouldn't be far behind. Just needs some discipline in the system, same as they're pushing ex-military into schools now, but society has be prepared to allow that discipline to be used.

i thought one of the problems with that idea was that ex military types didn't want to do it.

as someone who's taught in a secondary school i know that i wouldn't fancy it.

[burnleyinexile]

As for the Human Rights Act/European Convention on Human Rights, bin it. It is the main reason we have some 100+ organisations representing the rights of criminals and yet only one, Victim Support, representing victims of crime.

We were already protected by the UN Universal Declaration on Human Rights. It's good enough for the rest of the world, so why did Europe feel the need to create the behemoth we now have? We also never had the trouble, under that declaration, of getting rid of foreign criminals back to their own country. If they get shot/hung/tortured who gives a fuck. If that is the deterrent laid down by the sovereign government in a state where they broke the law that they broke then so be it. And yes, I agree that a Brit breaking the law abroad should also be subject to that countries laws.

The ECHR is just a gravy train for the likes of blairs witch and her ilk, parasites.

[Dale White]

Aye lets go back to the 80's were the cops could fit anybody up for anything, beat people to a pulp and get paid for doing it.Where bosses can sack anybody without giving a valid reason and women are treated like second class citizens. Everybody would agree the HR could do with some trimming but lets not chuck the baby out with the bathwater, i also reckon a few tory lawers have made a few quid via the legislation, not just that cow.

[burnleyinexile]

So, DW, the ECHR has stopped, single handedly, all those 'oppressions' you mention? So how come other countries simply rely on the one declaration that covers EVERYONE, are not signatories to ECHR, and yet seem able to have got rid of those injustices you are hand wringing about?

Who is to say whether the rights enshrined in the Equality Act 2010, or the EWTD, would not have evolved naturally from our existing laws? We have come a long way from Magna Carta, but little of that progress is down to the Brussels Mafia.

Who banned corporal punishment in our schools? Europe. Great. We now have epidemic youth problems, people being kicked to death in front of thier families for daring to speak out. Old people afraid to leave their homes, yet these youths are untouchable because they 'know thier human rights' and can play the Police like a musical instrument.

[Blackwhite]

Only just got a chance to respond Si, sorry. There will be some assumptions about what you meant, so no offense if I've got it arse-first

Personally I think all of it should be repealed, in my opinion we already had enough rights protections under existing legislation and under common law.

Well, that's probably as good a place to start as any. You're right, we did. It was the European Human Rights declaration that folks like you want repealed because of what it means for our sovereignty/the kind of issues you mention.

The problem is, it's balls that this was forced on us by the EU. The Euro HR declaration was brought in after the war, for very obvious reasons, and is nothing to do with the EU. We signed up to it to prevent death camps etc.; we were willing signatories, and drafters.

The issue was, as our Magna Carta/common law approach wasn't enshrined in law, if the govt/filth wanted to fuck you they could; and your only recourse was to go to European court. This was expensive and really hard to do. In the end Nu Labour passed it into British law, not the EU.

We were just enshrining what we'd already signed up to. Difference was, you no longer had to spend thousands and take years going to Europe; it was in British law. The costs you speak of were higher before, I bet. Had to be: to mount a case in Europe vs. locally? Surely more time-consuming.


I'm afraid I'm also deeply sceptical about a number of those cases you refer to, and if I was being a real cunt I'd insist you proved they were real, and implied what you've been led to believe they did. There is a lot of "BRUSSELS WANTS TO BAN THE BANANA!" shite out there in these strange times

BTW the 100 charities for the crims claim is a bit suss too if you don't mind me saying. I could find you hundreds of charities devoted to caring for victims; to say it's only VS is also brass-coated balls. Perhaps you can link me to this wondrous plethora of criminally-minded charities: The Royal Society for the Prevention of Injury to Burglars, perhaps?


EDIT: not declaration, convention as Burnley hints. Check the reality here.

[jackos]

Who banned corporal punishment in our schools? Europe. Great. We now have epidemic youth problems, people being kicked to death in front of thier families for daring to speak out. Old people afraid to leave their homes, yet these youths are untouchable because they 'know thier human rights' and can play the Police like a musical instrument.

So the answer to problem kids is to beat them? Sweden banned corporal punishment in homes and schools 45 years ago, same year Cooper went up in the ring against Ali for the second time, 1966 . The age of responsibility for kids in Sweden is 15. (compared to 10 in the UK). We have none of the youth problems seen in the UK, teen pregnancy rate in Sweden is 7/1000, compared to 29/1000 in the UK. What does that tell you? Are British kids born violent? No. Corporal punishment doesn't work. Nor does locking kids up. Listening to kids instead of beating them actually works. As does sex education in Schools ...... The youth problems seen in the UK are fuck all to do with the EU.

[burnleyinexile]

Who banned corporal punishment in our schools? Europe. Great. We now have epidemic youth problems, people being kicked to death in front of thier families for daring to speak out. Old people afraid to leave their homes, yet these youths are untouchable because they 'know thier human rights' and can play the Police like a musical instrument.

So the answer to problem kids is to beat them? Sweden banned corporal punishment in homes and schools 45 years ago, same year Cooper went up in the ring against Ali for the second time, 1966 . The age of responsibility for kids in Sweden is 15. (compared to 10 in the UK). We have none of the youth problems seen in the UK, teen pregnancy rate in Sweden is 7/1000, compared to 29/1000 in the UK. What does that tell you? Are British kids born violent? No. Corporal punishment doesn't work. Nor does locking kids up. Listening to kids instead of beating them actually works. As does sex education in Schools ...... The youth problems seen in the UK are fuck all to do with the EU.

Fair dos. It just seems that all the youth problems stem from the time when we stopped corporal punishment. I was caned at school, twice. Both different offences, but I made sure I didn't get it a third time. Perhaps I just followed the 11th commandment...thou shalt not get caught, but it didn't do me any harm.
Whatever the reason, kids today are well aware of thier rights. When I was working for the council, our duties brought us into daily contact with gangs of youths, criminal damage, theft, drunkenness, etc. and sometimes we were obliged to call the Police. I used to talk to the bobbies, they hated anything to do with youths because it was a minefield. I recall once watching a copper get more and more agitated with a teenager dancing round him, using his fingers as a pistol, and putting them near the Policeman and shouting 'BANG BANG', while my tit of a boss tried to decide what he wanted the youth nicked for. The Policeman couldn't do anything because the lad wasn't doing anything wrong. Eventually he got in his van and did one, we had a lot of problems that night with the gang.

Perhaps it is societies fault, but where do you draw the line in the sand and start again? Because of ECHR it would be virtually impossible IMO.

[SmithyHK]

Who banned corporal punishment in our schools? Europe. Great. We now have epidemic youth problems, people being kicked to death in front of thier families for daring to speak out. Old people afraid to leave their homes, yet these youths are untouchable because they 'know thier human rights' and can play the Police like a musical instrument.

So the answer to problem kids is to beat them? Sweden banned corporal punishment in homes and schools 45 years ago, same year Cooper went up in the ring against Ali for the second time, 1966 . The age of responsibility for kids in Sweden is 15. (compared to 10 in the UK). We have none of the youth problems seen in the UK, teen pregnancy rate in Sweden is 7/1000, compared to 29/1000 in the UK. What does that tell you? Are British kids born violent? No. Corporal punishment doesn't work. Nor does locking kids up. Listening to kids instead of beating them actually works. As does sex education in Schools ...... The youth problems seen in the UK are fuck all to do with the EU.

Fair dos. It just seems that all the youth problems stem from the time when we stopped corporal punishment. I was caned at school, twice. Both different offences, but I made sure I didn't get it a third time. Perhaps I just followed the 11th commandment...thou shalt not get caught, but it didn't do me any harm.
Whatever the reason, kids today are well aware of thier rights. When I was working for the council, our duties brought us into daily contact with gangs of youths, criminal damage, theft, drunkenness, etc. and sometimes we were obliged to call the Police. I used to talk to the bobbies, they hated anything to do with youths because it was a minefield. I recall once watching a copper get more and more agitated with a teenager dancing round him, using his fingers as a pistol, and putting them near the Policeman and shouting 'BANG BANG', while my tit of a boss tried to decide what he wanted the youth nicked for. The Policeman couldn't do anything because the lad wasn't doing anything wrong. Eventually he got in his van and did one, we had a lot of problems that night with the gang.

Perhaps it is societies fault, but where do you draw the line in the sand and start again? Because of ECHR it would be virtually impossible IMO.

It is society's fault, especially with Britain's mindset...and caning won't help.

Responsible parenting, where key values are instilled rather than spoon fed expectation, would go a lot further.

EDIT: Jeremy Kyle is a cunt, even though I sound like him above

[jackos]

Perhaps it is societies fault, but where do you draw the line in the sand and start again? Because of ECHR it would be virtually impossible IMO.

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of shit wrong in Sweden, they have some good idea's here that seem to work, others don't. I was brought up in the same world you where, I'm constantly defending the values I was brought up with, both within myself, and with my Swedish mates. Sometimes I feel like I'm from a different f'in planet, never mind country. But with regards corporal punishment they have been proved right in my eyes. Sweden has a lot of advantages now I have three kids of my own, (4 yrs, 2 yrs n 4 months), but I would move back to Yorkshire tomorrow if I thought both me and the Missus could find decent jobs. We can't, I'd have to work in the South East, she'd probably end up at home with the kids. And given them to choices, I stay here.

One thing Sweden did have up until 2 years ago was conscription. Sweden has not up until now had a professional army. All Swedish males served between 9 and 18 months national service, the majority military, but there was a civilian alternative ex. fireman at the local airport. (only other choice being a few months in prison). I do wonder what difference getting rid of that is going to have on society, but Sweden just couldn't afford to put everyone though military training any more, expensive modern warfare and perhaps the Sweden's willingness to take part in EU and UN forces meant they had to make a choice. Russia just isn't the threat the Soviet was ...

But politicians like Thatcher, Regan n Bush changed society. They disenfranchised large sections of society, their short sighted policies helped destroy what remained of British industry, instead of trying to fix it. Growing up we where taught that only loosers worked in factories, smart folks worked in Service industries. Making an entire generation of kids look down on their parents. Instead of improving the wages and working conditions for factory workers they let the jobs go abroad. That is one thing Swedish and German industrialists got right a very long time ago. They started working with the Unions for the common good. It was forced on them. But it works. Now Swedish Unions are against the EU Social charter because it would make the Swedish system illegal. Here neither Companies or Unions, want laws decreed by government, they want negotiated agreements that acceptable to both sides. It works here. It probably wouldn't work in other parts of Europe.

[burnleyinexile]

Tell you something, I would hate to be a politician...me bloody head is banging.

[burnleyinexile]

It is society's fault, especially with Britain's mindset...and caning won't help.

Responsible parenting, where key values are instilled rather than spoon fed expectation, would go a lot further.

EDIT: Jeremy Kyle is a cunt, even though I sound like him above

Perhaps caning isn't the answer, it just seemed to be a watershed when it was outlawed (as a result of legal action by two mums in Scotland whose kids hadn't even been caned!FFS). I agree with the parenting point, my two lads think I'm a cunt (like loads of you) but they've never, as far as I am aware, put a foot wrong and are respectful to women and older folks (apart from me Ponte of course). Perhaps I've just been lucky, who knows?

As for kyle. If any of those wankers on his show actually think any of it is about helping them, they should be double tapped. A lass who lives near me went on a couple of years ago, one kid x several father candidates=good telly. Made her life a train crash, her rep is as a slag, etc., and her family are always involved in shit because of it. Nice one jezza. He's a self serving master of the art of onanism, a fucking lounge lizard, and a fucking social parasite to boot.

God I love this new hard as fuck opinionated keyboard.

[Dale White]

So, DW, the ECHR has stopped, single handedly, all those 'oppressions' you mention? So how come other countries simply rely on the one declaration that covers EVERYONE, are not signatories to ECHR, and yet seem able to have got rid of those injustices you are hand wringing about?

Who is to say whether the rights enshrined in the Equality Act 2010, or the EWTD, would not have evolved naturally from our existing laws? We have come a long way from Magna Carta, but little of that progress is down to the Brussels Mafia.

Who banned corporal punishment in our schools? Europe. Great. We now have epidemic youth problems, people being kicked to death in front of thier families for daring to speak out. Old people afraid to leave their homes, yet these youths are untouchable because they 'know thier human rights' and can play the Police like a musical instrument.

So i'm a handwringer now, i thought better of you than that mate,whats next tree hugger. i'll leave you to it. Oh and beating kids up makes them worse not better.

[burnleyinexile]

So, DW, the ECHR has stopped, single handedly, all those 'oppressions' you mention? So how come other countries simply rely on the one declaration that covers EVERYONE, are not signatories to ECHR, and yet seem able to have got rid of those injustices you are hand wringing about?

Who is to say whether the rights enshrined in the Equality Act 2010, or the EWTD, would not have evolved naturally from our existing laws? We have come a long way from Magna Carta, but little of that progress is down to the Brussels Mafia.

Who banned corporal punishment in our schools? Europe. Great. We now have epidemic youth problems, people being kicked to death in front of thier families for daring to speak out. Old people afraid to leave their homes, yet these youths are untouchable because they 'know thier human rights' and can play the Police like a musical instrument.

So i'm a handwringer now, i thought better of you than that mate,whats next tree hugger. i'll leave you to it. Oh and beating kids up makes them worse not better.

Sorry about that, no I doubt you're a tree hugging sandal wearing macramé crafting muesli eating tree hugger, so no more going down that route.

Can you evidence that youth behaviour post corporal punishment has improved, compared with those who did receive the cane? I've lived through both, and IMHO it has defo got worse since it was stopped.

[eric olthwaite]

Can you evidence that youth behaviour post corporal punishment has improved, compared with those who did receive the cane? I've lived through both, and IMHO it has defo got worse since it was stopped.

Post hoc ego propter hoc innit.

To which I would assert 'Fuck off'.

[Mustafaster]

Can you evidence that youth behaviour post corporal punishment has improved, compared with those who did receive the cane? I've lived through both, and IMHO it has defo got worse since it was stopped.

Post hoc ego propter hoc innit.

To which I would assert 'Fuck off'.

Nice philosphcal twist-
I am because of what went before.

[Dale White]

I have three grown up sons and i have never hit any of them and i reckon they are all ok, using the cane worked back in the day because most kids had parents that stayed together, these days what good is it abusing kids that have been abused at home, most bad behaviour has a reason behind it and there has to be a better soloution than clobbering them.
My dad died in 1971 when i was 14 and i had a brother and sister both under 5 years old, i got a milk round job with a family friend to help my mum with the bills but it made me late for school every day, the deputy head in his wisdom decided that he would give me the cane every day just because he could, i put up with that from the little cunt for 2 weeks until one day i grabbed the cane off the cunt and filled the twat in.Got a bollocking off the cops and never went back to school, from my experience the cane didn't do any good at all.

[burnleyinexile]

Obviously there will always be cunts like that who like to abuse their authority, not condoning that and they should be prosecuted for that. Perhaps corporal punishment isn't the answer, but it gave a boundary, and if you crossed it you knew there was a penalty to pay.

Anyway, time to go to Hospital again. I've had my say and thats that.

[Blackwhite]

Perhaps corporal punishment isn't the answer, but it gave a boundary, and if you crossed it you knew there was a penalty to pay.

From the sound of it, it's not Dale who learned where the boundaries were.

[eric olthwaite]

Can you evidence that youth behaviour post corporal punishment has improved, compared with those who did receive the cane? I've lived through both, and IMHO it has defo got worse since it was stopped.

Post hoc ego propter hoc innit.

To which I would assert 'Fuck off'.

Nice philosphcal twist-
I am because of what went before.

Oh, bollocks. That's what comes of being a smartarse.

I shall just pop outside to search for my petard. Whilst not, of course, picking you up on 'philosphcal'.